Looking at realistic hp numbers
10-25-2013, 08:19 AM
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Looking at realistic hp numbers
Looking toward future car and have been lurking as well as received several PM's from members who took the time to answer. My question or questions:
Looking to find out how much power is lost between crank and at the wheels. When I had my last Mustang, it cranked at 412 but around 370 at the wheels. However, several folks here have said that with older power that I would lose a higher percentage from crank to wheels. I would like 300 at the wheels without losing the ability to use it on the street or having to tinker with it every day or two. I was looking at Ford power but it seems that getting 300+ at the wheels might be a stretch without forced induction or spending more that I would have in GM power.
Looking to find out how much power is lost between crank and at the wheels. When I had my last Mustang, it cranked at 412 but around 370 at the wheels. However, several folks here have said that with older power that I would lose a higher percentage from crank to wheels. I would like 300 at the wheels without losing the ability to use it on the street or having to tinker with it every day or two. I was looking at Ford power but it seems that getting 300+ at the wheels might be a stretch without forced induction or spending more that I would have in GM power.
10-26-2013, 09:36 AM
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From what I have found, 20% loss between crank and wheels seems to be about what to expect. Maybe more, maybe less given an auto or manual. New cars appear to lose less then older builds. Case in point my newer Mustang which lost around 10%. Interestingly, is apprears that a belt driven fan may be one of the biggest culprits in robbing hp. Seems like a clutch driven or best an electric would be the way to go. Still learning...
10-27-2013, 02:50 PM
#3
Jim Stainer
For what it's worth my Camaro coasted much farther than my Miata will. In the Camaro coming into town from 65 I could slip it into N at the last gravel before the speed dropped to 30 and it was perfect. So it took 1 mile of coasting to drop from 65 to 30. Same engine and trans in the Miata and the Miata is stopped before I get to the speed limit change.
I wonder if the CV joints turning in the rear instead of the solid axles makes a little bit of a difference. The windshield on the Camaro was much steeper so I would imagine the areo was a little better on it than the Miata. Also the Camaro got the same or maybe slightly better mileage and you would think shedding 1200 lbs would have improved mileage in the Miata.
It probably means nothing to the question but just a weird thing.
I wonder if the CV joints turning in the rear instead of the solid axles makes a little bit of a difference. The windshield on the Camaro was much steeper so I would imagine the areo was a little better on it than the Miata. Also the Camaro got the same or maybe slightly better mileage and you would think shedding 1200 lbs would have improved mileage in the Miata.
It probably means nothing to the question but just a weird thing.
10-27-2013, 03:39 PM
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Trying to figure parasitic losses difficult
Trying to figure parasitic losses are really hard. There is no doubt in my feeble mind that new cars do indeed give away far less in losses then older cars even those like your camaro which weigh more. I am sure it is many things that add up to more HP loss then we would like. I started thinking about it when my 2012 Mustang and others like it, only gave up about 10% between crank and wheel HP compared to sometimes three times that much with the Miata and older engines. Given our search for more HP, it would seem that if we could capture some of those losses that we could gain 50+ HP easily...There must be someone out that with some of the answers but so far, I have not found the exact reasons....
10-28-2013, 09:14 AM
#5
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For what it's worth my Camaro coasted much farther than my Miata will. In the Camaro coming into town from 65 I could slip it into N at the last gravel before the speed dropped to 30 and it was perfect. So it took 1 mile of coasting to drop from 65 to 30. Same engine and trans in the Miata and the Miata is stopped before I get to the speed limit change.
I wonder if the CV joints turning in the rear instead of the solid axles makes a little bit of a difference. The windshield on the Camaro was much steeper so I would imagine the areo was a little better on it than the Miata. Also the Camaro got the same or maybe slightly better mileage and you would think shedding 1200 lbs would have improved mileage in the Miata.
It probably means nothing to the question but just a weird thing.
I wonder if the CV joints turning in the rear instead of the solid axles makes a little bit of a difference. The windshield on the Camaro was much steeper so I would imagine the areo was a little better on it than the Miata. Also the Camaro got the same or maybe slightly better mileage and you would think shedding 1200 lbs would have improved mileage in the Miata.
It probably means nothing to the question but just a weird thing.
The 98-02 Camaro was actually very sound in the aerodynamics department. I think momentum also had a bit to do with it rolling further. I also noticed the Miata drops speed rather quickly when you get out of the throttle, almost like a truck.
10-28-2013, 09:54 AM
#6
Jim Stainer
Hey that is good to hear Mike. Well not good but at least I know feeling like I have a parachute is normal now! When I first noticed it I looked for brakes dragging but everything seemed fine. I know from my pinewood derby days that weight is a key factor in the coast distance so I expected the Maita to not do as well but I did not expect so much difference.
I really did expect a few more MPG out of the little guy but I have yet to be able to keep my foot out of it and really test it for MPG so I may never know. That might be something for you the know Chuck. I have no idea why but this Miata just ends up getting driven harder than any of the 6 Camaros and Mustangs I have owned. It is every bit as thrilling as it was to slip behind the wheel of that 65 fastback when I was 17. Truth to be told the Miata is the first car I have ever thought was better than that first Mustang...
Not the wife though. No need to trade perfection!
I really did expect a few more MPG out of the little guy but I have yet to be able to keep my foot out of it and really test it for MPG so I may never know. That might be something for you the know Chuck. I have no idea why but this Miata just ends up getting driven harder than any of the 6 Camaros and Mustangs I have owned. It is every bit as thrilling as it was to slip behind the wheel of that 65 fastback when I was 17. Truth to be told the Miata is the first car I have ever thought was better than that first Mustang...
Not the wife though. No need to trade perfection!
10-28-2013, 12:42 PM
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Jim,
Glad to know that you are a former Mustang owner. I owned a '66 back in '67. Always wanted another but my next one did not come till 2012 with the 5.0. Then my "wants" went to something like the Miata with V8 power so here I am. The parasitic losses really between new and old really got me to thinking and I posted another post strickly about parasitic losses. Hopefully, someone can come up with reasons why and ways to cut that loss down. I would rather get 50 HP from cutting down parasitic losses then from putting a lot more $$ in the engine...
Glad to know that you are a former Mustang owner. I owned a '66 back in '67. Always wanted another but my next one did not come till 2012 with the 5.0. Then my "wants" went to something like the Miata with V8 power so here I am. The parasitic losses really between new and old really got me to thinking and I posted another post strickly about parasitic losses. Hopefully, someone can come up with reasons why and ways to cut that loss down. I would rather get 50 HP from cutting down parasitic losses then from putting a lot more $$ in the engine...
10-28-2013, 02:34 PM
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Parasitic losses come from a lot of places, and there's a lot you can do to mitigate that without spending big bux. New cars have few losses and get good gas mileage because the engineers have been working on these things for years.
Pay very carefull attention to friction. Mechanical parts moving around will always cause some friction. Use quality lubricants, like a pure synthetic motor oil, trans lube, and diff lube.
Don't use oils that are heavier than you need. 5W-30 true synthetic motor oil has less resistance to movement than 15W-50 Dino oil. (BTW, there are only 4 true synthetic motor oils on the market, and M1 is not one of them.)
The CV joints in an IRS are less efficient than a solid axle.
Do you really need a big 140A alternator? If the draw is only 40A, that's what the alternator will make. It only makes what is is needed. If you have a bigger/heavier alternator than you need, it will take more power to spin it.
Same thing with the drive shaft. Do you really need a 3" steel shaft? Also, an incresed pinion angle will increase frictional losses.
Some tires have more rolling resistance than others. As do underinflated tires.
Other than thos simple things, you'll spend a lot of money doing engineering changes for minimal return.
Pay very carefull attention to friction. Mechanical parts moving around will always cause some friction. Use quality lubricants, like a pure synthetic motor oil, trans lube, and diff lube.
Don't use oils that are heavier than you need. 5W-30 true synthetic motor oil has less resistance to movement than 15W-50 Dino oil. (BTW, there are only 4 true synthetic motor oils on the market, and M1 is not one of them.)
The CV joints in an IRS are less efficient than a solid axle.
Do you really need a big 140A alternator? If the draw is only 40A, that's what the alternator will make. It only makes what is is needed. If you have a bigger/heavier alternator than you need, it will take more power to spin it.
Same thing with the drive shaft. Do you really need a 3" steel shaft? Also, an incresed pinion angle will increase frictional losses.
Some tires have more rolling resistance than others. As do underinflated tires.
Other than thos simple things, you'll spend a lot of money doing engineering changes for minimal return.
10-28-2013, 02:41 PM
#9
Jim Stainer
Hey Bob welcome abord! So what do you like for oil? I'm running Moble 1 5-30 in the engine, Synchromesh in the trans and Valvoline synthetic 75-90 in the diff and thought that was as good as it gets.
I'm not following why a 3" steel shaft is not good but yeah big soft tires roll like a turd for sure.
I'm not following why a 3" steel shaft is not good but yeah big soft tires roll like a turd for sure.
Last edited by charchri4; 10-28-2013 at 02:44 PM.
10-28-2013, 02:42 PM
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boB,
Good points. I agree about the lubricants and know that M1 is not a true syn.
Always have used a top tier syn for everything I can. The alt and drive shaft issue make sense. I guess that we do what we can and then build the engine to get what power we want.
Good points. I agree about the lubricants and know that M1 is not a true syn.
Always have used a top tier syn for everything I can. The alt and drive shaft issue make sense. I guess that we do what we can and then build the engine to get what power we want.
10-28-2013, 02:54 PM
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Jim,
I run Amsoil in most everything. Their signature series 5-30 in sump and their severe gear in the diff but not sure for the next Miata and will depend on the engine and rear end. I know that in the lab that one syn may have less resistance then another however, (and here is comes) I don't think it makes much difference in the cars discussed here. I would imagine that M1 would not show any more noticable parasitic loss then the best syn made in a built Miata.. I think using a good syn and making sure you keep the oil clean is the name of the game.
I run Amsoil in most everything. Their signature series 5-30 in sump and their severe gear in the diff but not sure for the next Miata and will depend on the engine and rear end. I know that in the lab that one syn may have less resistance then another however, (and here is comes) I don't think it makes much difference in the cars discussed here. I would imagine that M1 would not show any more noticable parasitic loss then the best syn made in a built Miata.. I think using a good syn and making sure you keep the oil clean is the name of the game.
10-28-2013, 03:00 PM
#14
Jim Stainer
Too true! Yeah I doubt the difference would be measureable but fun to hear what guys run. I used to run Amzoil back in the day but too hard to find anymore. Not stuck on M1 for sure but I do really like the Synchromesh over ATF in the trans.
10-28-2013, 03:16 PM
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A 3" steel drive shaft is heavy, and takes energy to spin. Light weight alum or even carbon fiber will free up a small amount of HP.
As for oil...... Don't want to start a war or an argument.
A true synthetic motor oil starts with a PAO base stock, and then additives are used to acheive the desired results. The big advantage to a synthetic is it's ability to stand up to heat better - high rpm's, turbo's, etc.
They are also a little bit "slippery-er", and cause less parasitic loss. Not very much, though. It's not like you'll see a 10% increase.
There are only 4 oils that I know of that start with a PAO base stock. Royal Purple, Redline, Amsoil, and another one I can never remember the name of.
I use a Royal Purple in my race car, because of the RPM's. It's reasonably priced and easy to come by. But all my other cars get dino oil.
The Harley also gets RP, because it is air cooled. UOA shows that M1 can't stand up to the Harley, but RP can.
M1 is not a bad oil. In most cars and trucks it seems to do just fine. It's not true synthetic, but it's priced like one. IMO, that makes it a bad value. But for most cars with a reasonable change interval, it will perform just fine.
As for oil...... Don't want to start a war or an argument.
A true synthetic motor oil starts with a PAO base stock, and then additives are used to acheive the desired results. The big advantage to a synthetic is it's ability to stand up to heat better - high rpm's, turbo's, etc.
They are also a little bit "slippery-er", and cause less parasitic loss. Not very much, though. It's not like you'll see a 10% increase.
There are only 4 oils that I know of that start with a PAO base stock. Royal Purple, Redline, Amsoil, and another one I can never remember the name of.
I use a Royal Purple in my race car, because of the RPM's. It's reasonably priced and easy to come by. But all my other cars get dino oil.
The Harley also gets RP, because it is air cooled. UOA shows that M1 can't stand up to the Harley, but RP can.
M1 is not a bad oil. In most cars and trucks it seems to do just fine. It's not true synthetic, but it's priced like one. IMO, that makes it a bad value. But for most cars with a reasonable change interval, it will perform just fine.
10-28-2013, 03:33 PM
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For all it worth. My 99 miata with a GTO LS1 with a t5 racing trans, alum drive shaft, CTS rear end with custom transaxles. 330 RWHP 384 torque. All the best fluids as well. The Motor has a vac. pump as well
10-28-2013, 05:21 PM
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No relation. But I have read through that site extensivly. Lots of really good science there.
What year is your engine? Did you change anything from stock- Cam, tune, etc?
Obviously, I'v got a miata/V8 project in mind. I'm here to find more info about that.
Obviously, I'v got a miata/V8 project in mind. I'm here to find more info about that.
10-28-2013, 05:27 PM
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Did not change a thing. Gm performance crate motor (01), I think, long block with a LS6 intake. and of course the vac pump. also added two pressure equalization lines from the front of the valve cover to the front sides of the oil pan. I have had engine oiling issues while racing and that did the trick. I can help a bunch
10-28-2013, 08:07 PM
#20
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A 3" steel drive shaft is heavy, and takes energy to spin. Light weight alum or even carbon fiber will free up a small amount of HP.
As for oil...... Don't want to start a war or an argument.
A true synthetic motor oil starts with a PAO base stock, and then additives are used to acheive the desired results. The big advantage to a synthetic is it's ability to stand up to heat better - high rpm's, turbo's, etc.
They are also a little bit "slippery-er", and cause less parasitic loss. Not very much, though. It's not like you'll see a 10% increase.
There are only 4 oils that I know of that start with a PAO base stock. Royal Purple, Redline, Amsoil, and another one I can never remember the name of.
I use a Royal Purple in my race car, because of the RPM's. It's reasonably priced and easy to come by. But all my other cars get dino oil.
The Harley also gets RP, because it is air cooled. UOA shows that M1 can't stand up to the Harley, but RP can.
M1 is not a bad oil. In most cars and trucks it seems to do just fine. It's not true synthetic, but it's priced like one. IMO, that makes it a bad value. But for most cars with a reasonable change interval, it will perform just fine.
As for oil...... Don't want to start a war or an argument.
A true synthetic motor oil starts with a PAO base stock, and then additives are used to acheive the desired results. The big advantage to a synthetic is it's ability to stand up to heat better - high rpm's, turbo's, etc.
They are also a little bit "slippery-er", and cause less parasitic loss. Not very much, though. It's not like you'll see a 10% increase.
There are only 4 oils that I know of that start with a PAO base stock. Royal Purple, Redline, Amsoil, and another one I can never remember the name of.
I use a Royal Purple in my race car, because of the RPM's. It's reasonably priced and easy to come by. But all my other cars get dino oil.
The Harley also gets RP, because it is air cooled. UOA shows that M1 can't stand up to the Harley, but RP can.
M1 is not a bad oil. In most cars and trucks it seems to do just fine. It's not true synthetic, but it's priced like one. IMO, that makes it a bad value. But for most cars with a reasonable change interval, it will perform just fine.
All the track rat turbo Miata guys swear by Rotella T6. I ran it in the 1.6 and the 5.3 with good results. Its one of the few oils that made the 1.6 quick lifter ticking.
Cut the back bumper up higher. It acts as a parachute.
With the price of a new Speedway aluminum 3" shaft, I don't understand why anyone would go elsewhere. Its balanced and comes with the new joints and slip yoke.
10-28-2013, 08:37 PM
#21
Jim Stainer
Interesting I never thought about Rotella before. If the hype is true that might be the way to go. Cheaper than Mobile 1 too.
Good point on the rear bumper cover. Thanks Mike!!
Good point on the rear bumper cover. Thanks Mike!!
10-28-2013, 09:13 PM
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Shell Rotella is diesel dino oil. Not a bad oil, but it's designed specifically for diesels. Mostly with added detergents to pick up the extra soot and keep it suspended. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with that for a gas engine, but I don't see that as an advantage, either. Probably just as good (and maybe slightly better) than standard gas dino oils.
Shell Rotella also comes in a "synthetic" version. It's also a dino oil like M1.
The diesel oils used to have significantly more Zinc than gas oils. Zinc is the anti-wear additive that was removed from gas oils to protect the cats. But the newer diesel engines also have carts, so the CJ diesel oils have significantly reduced their zinc content as well.
If you want the added zinc, you need to use a racing specific oil, like Bradd Penn. Or add it to your favorite oil. I add Comp Cams break in additive at every oil change.
Shell Rotella also comes in a "synthetic" version. It's also a dino oil like M1.
The diesel oils used to have significantly more Zinc than gas oils. Zinc is the anti-wear additive that was removed from gas oils to protect the cats. But the newer diesel engines also have carts, so the CJ diesel oils have significantly reduced their zinc content as well.
If you want the added zinc, you need to use a racing specific oil, like Bradd Penn. Or add it to your favorite oil. I add Comp Cams break in additive at every oil change.
Last edited by .boB; 10-28-2013 at 09:41 PM.
10-29-2013, 06:52 AM
#23
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Many of the companies are adding zinc back to some of their oils to bring the "Hot Rod" guys back into the fold. I think even Amsoil has added a new oil for that purpose but can't say for certain. Learning about oils will hurt your brain but there is some great info at bobistheoilguy and you certainly learn what seems to be hype and what is truth. And believe me, there is a bunch of hype out there about oils...If you say it enough, most people believe it.....
10-29-2013, 09:05 AM
#24
Jim Stainer
Shell Rotella is diesel dino oil. Not a bad oil, but it's designed specifically for diesels. Mostly with added detergents to pick up the extra soot and keep it suspended. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with that for a gas engine, but I don't see that as an advantage, either. Probably just as good (and maybe slightly better) than standard gas dino oils.
Shell Rotella also comes in a "synthetic" version. It's also a dino oil like M1.
The diesel oils used to have significantly more Zinc than gas oils. Zinc is the anti-wear additive that was removed from gas oils to protect the cats. But the newer diesel engines also have carts, so the CJ diesel oils have significantly reduced their zinc content as well.
If you want the added zinc, you need to use a racing specific oil, like Bradd Penn. Or add it to your favorite oil. I add Comp Cams break in additive at every oil change.
Shell Rotella also comes in a "synthetic" version. It's also a dino oil like M1.
The diesel oils used to have significantly more Zinc than gas oils. Zinc is the anti-wear additive that was removed from gas oils to protect the cats. But the newer diesel engines also have carts, so the CJ diesel oils have significantly reduced their zinc content as well.
If you want the added zinc, you need to use a racing specific oil, like Bradd Penn. Or add it to your favorite oil. I add Comp Cams break in additive at every oil change.
10-29-2013, 10:09 AM
#25
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Dino oil comes from dead dinosaurs (maybe). Petroleum based, rather than PAO. Not a true synthetic.
The current crop of "synthetic" oils is a trick of marketing. What they call synthetic now is dino oil that's been refined enough to meet certain performance charectoristics. That's good for the oil company, because these dino synthetics are cheaper to produce. They still charge high prices, and their profit margin is bigger.
Finding this information is very difficult. But it appears that the only Mobile 1 that is still a PAO base stock is their 20W-50 motorcycle oil.
The current crop of "synthetic" oils is a trick of marketing. What they call synthetic now is dino oil that's been refined enough to meet certain performance charectoristics. That's good for the oil company, because these dino synthetics are cheaper to produce. They still charge high prices, and their profit margin is bigger.
Finding this information is very difficult. But it appears that the only Mobile 1 that is still a PAO base stock is their 20W-50 motorcycle oil.
