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Just talked to my buddy who works at the machine shop. They’re pretty busy, but I can drop off the engine tomorrow (my day off) and they’ll do whatever needs done.
Since I’ll be down for a couple weeks, I may look into that master upgrade. Tildon 7/8 Unversal clutch master...is that right?
Brad - I also switched to the Tilton and my results were the same as the engineer's. I had to slightly enlarge the hole in the firewall with a die grinder and address the difference between the metric thread on the clutch pedal clevis and the standard thread on the Tilton push rod. At the onset the heavier pedal feel was a little noticeable but now its a total non-issue, in fact I like it better than the pedal "numbness" in my Mustang.
Yes, after reading up a bit more, it is a no brainer. It’s in my Summit cart.
Just waiting to hear back from the shop. Got the engine to them this morning. They said they would tear things down this aft and get back to me. Since the crank has already been turned from the last failure, I may need a new one if this one is too mangled.
It seems there is a consensus that Martin's 3/4" clutch master cylinder is right on the cusp of providing just enough travel for acceptable clutch operation (if adjusted just right), and it provides a nice, light pedal feel. Several have converted to a 7/8" clutch master that seems to provide a big plenty of travel at the expense of greater pedal effort.
I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to try a 13/16" clutch master? Since the 3/4" master is right on the borderline of acceptable travel, it would seem the 13/16" unit would likely provide sufficient travel while splitting the difference in pedal effort. Perhaps the ideal compromise?
It seems there is a consensus that Martin's 3/4" clutch master cylinder is right on the cusp of providing just enough travel for acceptable clutch operation (if adjusted just right), and it provides a nice, light pedal feel. Several have converted to a 7/8" clutch master that seems to provide a big plenty of travel at the expense of greater pedal effort.
I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to try a 13/16" clutch master? Since the 3/4" master is right on the borderline of acceptable travel, it would seem the 13/16" unit would likely provide sufficient travel while splitting the difference in pedal effort. Perhaps the ideal compromise?
Hi,
Yes Sunshine guy makes a very good suggestion. There is indeed a 13/16 option which will have a lighter pedal feel than the 0.875 Tilton unit ...and still provide the necessary throw i would imagine. See below..for the link..maybe Brad can be the first person to try it out
It would be interesting to quantify the actual difference in pedal effort between the 3/4" and 7/8" masters. A weight scale could be used to push on the clutch pedal with the current master and then again with the larger master installed, recording the pounds of force required for each.
If anyone is interested in such an endeavor (wink wink, Brad), I'm thinking the "test equipment" could be something as simple as a short piece of 2x4 with another 2x4 center-nailed to create a "T" shape. Put the end of the first 2x4 on the clutch pedal and a weight scale on the top of the T, push on the scale and record the pounds of force required to swing the pedal. A smaller capacity digital scale would probably be most accurate, but a plain old bathroom scale should ballpark it.
What I "think" will happen is about a 36% increase in pedal effort, simply because a 7/8" master has a piston with 36% greater surface area than a 3/4", and consequently that much more volume displacement when moved in a cylinder. This also suggests...I think...36% greater travel at the slave with equivalent pedal movement. FWIW, if this "theory" is correct, a 13/16" master would provide an 18% increase in effort and travel, respectively.
Caveats:
1. This simple calculation probably discounts some other mechanical factors in the system that may change the outcome
2. These calculations were made by a guy who struggled with freshman algebra...so surely don't take these numbers as gospel without measured confirmation.
Picked up my engine today. Not bad, 2 weeks from the day i dropped it off. Price was fair for the work done. 3rd time is the charm, right?
The new Tilton clutch master is here too. I”d be all set for a fun weekend of installation except for the fact that my wife has taken over the garage for her car until it goes into winter storage .....probably next month. I’ll keep the insurance on mine for now in case I luck out and we have a late start to winter. I’ll update once I get the garage back. )
Was messing around on the workbench with the new clutch master and Martins adaptor. Bottom bolt goes in ok, but the top bolt won’t go in as the reservoir base is too close to the hole. It seems my 2 options are to either slot the top hole or to red locktite a stud in the adaptor and use a nut.
Any better suggestions?
Still not at the reassembly stage yet. Still making arrangements to store the wife’s car so I can have my garage back )
Ok, time for an update.
I’d picked up the engine a few weeks back, but no time to dig in until this past weekend. Got it all in and ready to go. Immediately on start up it started making that same clanging noise from the last video. Again it seemed to be coming from the oil pan. Not sure why it would do that, but I figured I’d be pulling the damn engine out again. I happened to crawl around yesterday and noticed the back edge of the crank pulley was scraped down to bare metal and the edge was razor sharp. WTF? A closer look revealed that a waterpump mounting hole had a long stud in it that was making contact with the back edge of the crank pulley. Aha. I removed the belt and pulley and started the car and no noise, in fact it sounded great. Thinking I’m in the clear now, I cleaned up the pulley, replaced the stud with a proper sized bolt and proceeded to button things up. Tonights plan was to let it run for about 10 or 15 minutes to get the oil good and hot for an oil and filter change. Well, once she warmed up she started knocking again. Not as bad as before, but not good. I drained the oil and cut the filter open...loaded with copper.
It only ran a total of less than 2 minutes with that stud pushing on the crank, but I guess that was enough to toast yet another thrust bearing. Not sure why the shop assembly guy put a stud there, but bad on me for not noticing when I installed the pullies.
I’m done with this engine.
Brother, i am so sorry to hear that this pest of an engine has given you more grief. Put it up for sale and get a crate motor and be done with it. Make sure you get one with about 400hp with decent manners and you will be very happy.
I cant believe how much pain this engine has put you through...what a headache.
But hang in there champ, pull the engine and sell it...then get yourself a proper engine to truly enjoy
The Thrust bearing surface is supposed to have a copper face on it, but from the pics there appears to be some burning on the thrust face and also its flat spotted the thrust bearing at the 5-7 o'clock point. This has come from the totally crap journal machining on the crank thrust faces...which looks woeful. The machine shop never touched the crank in that area...100%. It very much appears that the crank thrust surfaces are not true at all. (i.e. crank not properly machined and polished). So what that means is its picking up the thrust bearing at the high spots and cooking it.. This is the cause of your issue with toasting thrust bearings.
They need to pay for this...its unacceptable. And don't go back
I couldn't convince myself that I would fare any better with a reman'd engine. Since the issue is obviously the crank, I decided I would get a new crank, and have the rotating assembly balanced, and assemble myself. I contacted a shop in a nearby city that does engines for an IHRA champ as well as normal commercial/industrial work. I asked about balancing etc and through a few emails back and forth and several questions, I emailed him pics of that crank. The engine guy said it might be a good idea to bring the block in for a check over too. He confirmed the crank is junk and suggested a few other things be done. I'm just going to go ahead and have them do the work and assemble the shortblock. He has my block and rotating assembly but his crankshaft guy is away hunting for the week. I should have a solid gameplan next week.
Meanwhile I sold my Flotek heads for basically what I paid for them, so I've been in contact with Ed Curtis about a cam/head package. Going with AFR165. May have to hold off on the cam and use my XE264 for another year, but I need heads once I get the shortblock back. Things should go much better this time.
That's a great plan and I am glad that things are moving forward. What you are doing will work perfectly. Glad you sold the heads as the AFR units are leaps and bounds better and that will hopefully correct the the rocker/pushrod/valve tip patterngeometry. Also do not short change the XE264 cam, its pretty decent for a street driven 302. It will make good power with the AFR heads.
Update time.
Got the shortblock rebuilt at the new shop. New (used) oem crank 10/10, align hone, jet cleaned, rotating assembly balanced, new bearings, rings and oil pump. It’s now in my garage.
Today I ordered my Ed Curtis custom cam, AFR 165’s and Comp Magnum Pro rockers and billet timing set.
While I’m waiting for that stuff I’m going to double check the machine shops work by measuring clearances and checking torque specs etc.
I figure even if I move up to a Dart block in tne future, I’ll have a nice top end to bolt onto it.
Sounds perfect mate, cant wait to see the results of that. I would suggest you will hit 350hp at the flywheel with that combo. A dart block wont be necessary, the standard block is well within its design limits at those power levels.
Also please make sure that you order a BILLET cam and NOT an AUSTEMPERED cam. Billet is by far a safer option. Sometimes the heat treatment on Austempered cores is not good enough and the lobes can get damaged by the steel roller of the lifters. Whereas a billet steel core wont go soft. You don't ever want to pull the cam out because of rounded lobes...it sux trust me I know
Yup, billet for sure. Seeing how many old ford cams are still in use, going billet was an easy choice. Can’t wait to get this engine together. Should be a good runner.
Minor update.
Got my Ed cam. Still waiting on the AFR heads from him, but I’ve started reassembly.
Crank thrust measured .006, and cam thrust is .005 after some careful sanding of the thrust plate for proper endplay. New Rollmaster 3040 timing set installed. The thrust plate is from Ed too...it has extra oil holes drilled in it.
Degreed the cam and it ended up 1/2 to 1* out of spec....have a good day.
Next up is timing cover/water pump, and button up the bottom- oil pump and pan. Then I’m ready for heads.
That is awesome news. I am so glad you got the Ed Curtis cam and the AFR heads. It will be a great engine. Those clearance numbers are spot on perfect. Also 1/2 degree off is perfect for degreeing the cam. It is likely just a measurement error (i.e. dial indicator pointer) that is getting you that small difference. But 1/2 degree off is nothing and if I am within 1 degree I call it a good install. I have never had to adjust the cam timing to compensate for cam degreeing errors. If you have to adjust more than +- 2 degrees on the crank to get it perfect, then something is wrong. For the record, Ed checks every cam before he sends it. So if your crank keyway and timing chain are in excellent shape then lining it up dot to dot on install will result in a correctly "degreed" cam. An adjustment either way for +-2 degrees wont change anything too drastically to notice. You will need over +- 4 degrees to notice the engine change behaviour slightly.
The only thing left is to verify the valvetrain geometry (i.e. pushrod length and rocker ratio). I am keen to see how much better the wear pattern on the valve stem will look now that you have excellent heads on it.
Keep us posted champion....things are looking really good now
Any update on the engine ? Also I forgot the ask you what specs Ed recommended for your engine. i am guessing somewhere between 215-220 deg @ 50 and around 0.575 to 0.6 lift on a 109 intake centreline ? Keep us posted buddy!
Thanks for asking, John.
Still waiting on heads. With Covid, things are slow and folks are more inclined to sit at home on assistance rather than working. Least that’s what Ed is telling me. Last I heard from Ed, heads are tentatively supposed to arrive to him Jan 25. However, I’ve heard rumours of other companies giving ship dates as late as Mar, and even June. Edlebrocks foundry casts heads for AFR and TrickFlow, and the company is in the middle of moving from California to Tennessee. Hopefully sooner than later.
Cam spec’s attached. You are pretty much spot on.
08-30-2020, 09:06 PM
