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Brad, I have a Ford e cam in my 5.0L and have the same issues you do with low speed driveability. I have a fresh engine I know is very sound, perfect compression, etc., so no basic mechanical reason for such behavior.
Look around on the Mustang forums for posts about people running the e cam with a stock EEC-IV control system. I see mounds of complaints about exactly this behavior...bucking at neutral throttle, abrupt transitions on/off of throttle, surges, idles poorly, etc. Try to find posts where someone says they are running the e cam and the car has great everyday driving manners. I have not seen a single one. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but I haven't seen them.
The e cam has a considerably narrower lobe separation angle than the 5.0L H.O. cam the computer system was designed around, and narrower than any of the other Ford "alphabet" cams. Even though the total .050 seat to seat timing is moderate enough, the overlap events are considerable and I suspect this is what baffles the EEC-IV when it's running in closed loop. At wide open throttle when it goes into open loop it runs just fine.
Other than the e cam...which is my suspicion as at least one culprit (but not a proven fact)...the #1 reason people have these driveability issues with the EEC-IV is vacuum leaks. You can "think" you've checked everything and still have a small leak somewhere, which is enough to send the computer into a frenzy. I'd suggest checking carefully for vacuum hose/intake manifold, etc. leaks with a smoke generator. Make one yourself for $15, see here:
I have set my own car aside for quite a while in disgust, tired of wrestling with its ill low speed manners, but will be tackling it again soon. Will start with the smoke test for leaks. Once I squash any bugs and am confident everything else is working as it should I am going to swap out the e cam for a Howards roller cam that has 217/217 duration at .50 and .496 lift with 1.6 rockers, but also has a 113 LSA instead of the tight 110 on the e cam.
You mentioned previously you wished you could find some Ford GT40X heads. The FloTek heads are pretty much a clone of the GT40X and flow about the same, stock to stock. They are a good, balanced match for the ported Explorer intake. I will bet you'd pick up maybe 6 - 10 HP if you swapped to a 70mm throttle body. The 65 mm won't hurt you much in the rpm ranges where you actually drive 95% of the time, though. The additional air flow will only help towards the top of the power band.
Interesting that my combo will soon be very similar to yours. I will be installing a new set of worked-over FloTec heads on mine (ported by TEA, multi-angle valve job, converted to LS style beehive springs, Scorpion roller rockers, etc). Have an Explorer intake with the lower ported by Tom Moss, 70mm throttle body, 76mm BBK mass air meter, and that Howards cam I mentioned. I'd note that usually I'd run more exhaust duration than intake on a small block Ford, but the ported FloTek heads measured 85% exhaust to intake flow pretty consistently across the usable lift ranges...so don't feel I need the extra exhaust duration.
Summary:
1. Check again for vacuum leaks using a smoke generator; that's a highly-likely and common culprit.
2. Before you change anything else in your combo, (especially different ECU, chip, etc), find a tuner you are comfortable with and get their input on what should work best for your combo. They should know what they have made work well in the past, and what was troublesome; their knowledge/advice on combo setup is worth as much as their efforts in tuning it.
Edit: One thing I forgot...the springs that come "standard" on the FloTek heads may not be satisfactory for the hydraulic roller cam. I'm not sure about their current spring specs, but when I bought mine a while back the springs were really appropriate only for a streetable, flat tappet cam. The hydraulic roller cams require more spring pressure to rev to their design rpm range. If you haven't already, I'd check both the seat and open pressures to verify they are appropriate for the hydraulic roller cam. This won't help the driveability gremlins, but will be important as you get the engine broken in and are revving it higher.
Thanks guys. Yup, tune is in the works. I just ordered a Quarterhorse and a couple chips. Will post the logs on efidynotuning.com, and possibly have Decipha cook me up a tune.
1) Yes to 70 or 75mm TB - throttle response will be better
2) B cams are not the best cams. There are far better options out there..custom cam is best, but if you want OTS - XE270 (218/224 @ 50) or XE274 (224/230 @ 50) comp cams will give decent power and very good manners day to day. Once you go to the next kevel you know you have a cam in the car and it will rock about a bit..fun for a sunday drive...not so much if you are in the car all day (like me).
3) Definitely do a vacuum test, leaks can be from anywhere, but they would need to be quite significant to give you the dramas you mention. So I don't think its a vacuum leak causing the driveability issues..but its worth a look.
4) Make sure the tune is properly sorted out by someone who knows what they are doing
5) O2 sensors need to be new AND be a good brand NTK/Bosch etc...I had a new but faulty VDO o2 sensor and it made my part throttle driveability a nightmare. So please check them or replace them to be sure. O2 sensor gremlins are a common issue.
6) As far as spring pressure goes you need something between 120-150 lb at the seat. The flotek heads are fitted with 130 lb springs. This is perfectly adequate for a roller cam with 0.5 in lift like the B cam. The B cam barely lifts 0.5 in...with a 1.6 ratio rocker. Those flotek springs can likely do up to 0.55in lift. I run 150lb for my cam's 0.6 in lift. Interestingly, the flotek heads only flow 218cfm on the intake at that 0.5 in valve lift and only go to 224 at 0.6in. By comparison a std non ported GT40P head flows 196cfm at 0.5 in and a TFS 170cc 11R flows 266cfm at 0.5 and 177cfm at 0.6 in and a TFS 190 11R flows 288cfm at 0.5 and 304cfm at 0.6in. Between the flowtek and the TFS 190 11R its a 32% difference in airflow at the same 0.5 in valve lift. I have never used the flotek heads before, keen to see how they perform once you get the car properly tuned.
But I luv the engine bay it looks ace, well done Brad
Brad, please post results here when you get the car tuned! I am confident you will see a nice increase in both power and torque.
However, to me it will be especially interesting to see how well a tuner can tame those low speed, everyday driving, idling and throttle transition issues. Those are challenges a lot of us face with similar combos.
I may be all wet (because it is a factory piece), but I still suspect the e cam to be a contributor to your driveability issues. A stock 5.0L HO cam is around 210 degrees @ .050; the 220 degrees of your e cam should not be a total duration that is beyond the capability of a stock, mass air flow EEC-IV to manage.
However, the e cam's 110 degree lobe separation angle is tighter than all the other varieties of Ford alphabet cams which are minimally at 112 degrees. Also, If you look at the broad selection of street-friendly, hydraulic roller cams for this engine from reputable aftermarket suppliers, you will also see very few that fall below that 112 LSA spec, and many at 113 - 114 degrees LSA.
Tightening the LSA (like the e cam does) can be a good strategy for boosting low and mid-range torque, a very good thing on a street engine. You will find many cams intended for carburetor applications that dip down to the 110 or even 108 LSA range. The biggest trade-off for the tighter LSA is a rougher idle for a given total duration, caused by the increased "overlap" or period in which the intake and exhaust valves are both open. Even though increased valve overlap will lower dynamic compression by effectively shortening the length of the effective compression stroke, the scavenging effects of a good exhaust system can use negative pressure waves to accelerate the intake charge early in the cycle, increasing charge efficiency sufficiently to overcome and surpass the loss from decreased dynamic compression. That's where the increased torque comes from.
However, that rougher idle that comes with a tighter LSA is caused by part of the intake charge escaping the exhaust valve during the overlap phase when the engine is turning at low speed. My theory/reasoning/belief is that the additional overlap of the tight LSA plays havoc with the EEC-IV EFI as 1) O2 sensors are reading a rich condition in the exhaust gas that doesn't exist in the cylinder, and 2) less fuel ends up in the cylinder than the ECU "thinks" based on injector pulse width because part of it is escaping during the scavenging process. It's not that the tight LSA is a problem; it is the fact the engine management system is not programmed to deal with the different fueling requirements caused by increased valve overlap. .
Look at a couple of the most proven street cams, noted below to be recommended by Tom Moss, and used successfully by many: the Comp XE264R and XE270R. Although both have significantly more .050: timing and more aggressive ramp angles than stock, both stay with a 114 degree LSA, only one degree lower than stock. I don't think that's because Comp desired to "spread out" the torque band rather than have a higher peak torque number; I think it is because that is simply what will work with the EEC-IV engine management system.
Anecdotal, unscientific, and unproven...but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Thanks for the replies and comments, guys.
It was doing the funky chicken with the stock cam, and basically a 100% stock foxbody conversion. I’m sure the e cam is not helping, and I def. know it’s not my best choice, but it was available for basically free. In hindsight I maybe should have stuck with the stock HO cam, but I figured on doing a cam change in the future. I did correspond with Ed about a custom grind while building this engine, but he also recommended me going with his upgraded springs which cost more than his cam. More than I could spend this time around.
I suspect most of my problems are stemming from that cone filter and the ecu not being able to adjust properly for the wacky air flow- the main reason I built the cool air box.
I ordered the tuning hardware, it may be here by the weekend and I can start data logging. Decipha over at eifdynotuning offers remote custom tuning for a reasonable price. I’ll likely end up doing that as the coding is way over my head.
It currently isn’t undriveable, just a bit of a handful at low speed.
And thanks for the positive comments about the appearance of the swap. I’m pretty pleased with how things are turning out.
Well, that was quick. I have about 1000 easy miles on the new engine and it's toast.
I was noticing unusual sediment on the cloth when checking the dipstick. Concerning enough to make me open up a used oil filter. Lots of glittery copper and the bottom of the filter can looks like copper metalflake paint. Talked to the machine shop that did the work, they suggested it was "somewhat" normal to have metal in a fresh build... "Drive it but keep an eye on it and listen for odd noises". The rod knock started the next day. Taking the engine out tonight and bringing the longblock in on Monday.
From what I'm reading online it seems like it'll be thrust bearing (#3) wear....which gives them a lot of leeway to to claim operator error. We'll see how it goes.
I should've just ordered the cheap Blueprint Engines shortblock I was thinking about. And like a lot of other folks, money ain't exactly plentiful this year. I just marked 25 years of business last month, couldn't hold a celebration as we were legislated closed. And a very real possibility I may have to close up for good.
But on the bright side: Murder Hornets...lol.
Ugh, so sorry to hear. Set backs like that suck. That is one of the reasons I have a V8 in mine, I built a turbo 4 engine for mine and had a failure during break in that made me throw in the towel with the 4 banger drivetrain. Set backs can be a killer, but it will still be worth it in the long run once everything is done. Best of luck!
That is tough buddy. I feel your pain. I had a fresh engine slowly die once once...(its been the only dead engine). It was due to a bad camshaft with poor heat treatment on the lobes (it was an austempered core) the lobes were soft and the roller lifters slowly wore them down. That made the valvetrain lose its pre load slowly and the engine slowly developed a knock and lost power. It took about 15000 miles to do it, but I was pissed off as I have never lost an engine that I built in 30 years I have been building them.
So lesson learnt was always use bullet steel cores for cams
So onto to your engine..
1) Copper in the oil and filter is bearing material
2) Metal filings in new engines is NOT normal, only a slight dusty grey film is normal around new pivot points (i.e. roller rocker arm pivots, pushrod ends etc). Bearings and cranks should not ever touch so there will be no material lost. The engine oil although will be discoloured slightly on a new engine as all the pre assembly lube is extruded form the surfaces it was applied. That is why you need to do repeated oil changes in the first 500 miles to get all the assembly "lube gunk" out.
1) Did you measure the nbearing clearances correctly ? The Main bearings will need anywhere from 1.5-3 thou to run without issue. I usually hit them up around 2 thou
2) The main thrust bearing clearance needs to be 6-8 thou on THRUST. That means after crank is installed, use a lever to lever the crank all the way tot he back of the engine. Then zero a dial indicator on the nose of the crank parallel to the crank centreline. Then use the lever to lever the crank forward towards the dial indicator on the front of the crank. You MUST have 6 thou of clearance if you have anything less than 5 thou...it will probably start to bind. I have found a few thrust bearings sets quite tight on this measurement. The solution is to use some wet and dry on a flat piece of glass and rub the thrust surfaces down a little until you get the clearance.
3) All conrod bearings need about 1-2 thou to run properly. I usually go about 1.5-2 thou
4) the other area that people miss checking is camshaft thrust this is to be 4-6 thou. This checked with the timing chain all setup and torqued in place.
I suspect that due to the copper nature of the metal that either a bearing or a thrust surface failure has occurred. Either due to bad clearances or bad oil pressure.
Please keep us updated as its events like that where some of the best learnings occur. Also on a personal note I am saddened to hear that you may be forced to close your business for good. If I was based in SW Ont. I would drop in and gladly help you take it out, strip it and rebuild it bigger and better...for free
Update
Got the engine to the shop. They tore it down and confirmed toasted thrust bearing. Oil pump sent shavings to #1 bearing but luckily no other damage that they’re copping to. While they had it apart I had them replace the roller lifters (...I had a bit of annoying lifter tick), and a new XE264 HR14 cam. Shop claims it must have been installer (me) error as nothing they did could have caused that. Regardless, they only charged me for parts and they ate the machine work and assembly. Endplay measured at .005 upon return.
I also had them order a new melonized dizzy gear. CC is pretty strict about making sure to use a new proper gear for warranty. That was a story in itself. Delay after delay to get the gear. I finally just ordered it from Summit and it was here 2 days later. Engine has been back in the car for the past 3 weeks just waiting on that gear. Got the car running this past weekend. Let it run in the garage for 20mins or so, changed oil and filter. Driving it a bit today.....seems to run really good. Still have lifter ticking so maybe need to adjust rockers. That cam is wonderful. Nice low speed manners. I have a wee bit of buck or hesitation right around 2k rpm. And slow hot starts. Pretty sure Decipha will be able to tune those out for me. Everything else is good. I’ll get a few hundred miles on it , change oil again and check filter and endplay. If that checks out we should be golden. Fingers crossed.
Glad to hear you have the motor repaired and running again. I think you're going to find it's a great combo.
The moderate timing and wide lobe separation angle on that cam should make for great street characteristics. I'll bet once you have it tuned it will have great manners and plenty of mid-range grunt...perfect street cam.
Adjusting valve "lash" about 1/4 turn tighter from where you can feel spring tension release from your pushrods (i.e., where you can turn them with your fingers) is probably the "optimum" if you are regularly pushing the engine to near valve float rpm. It won't raise your rpm ceiling but it will allow the lifters to bleed down more quickly if rpm exceeds the spring pressure's ability to keep the lifter in contact with the cam lobe. In other words, it allows the engine to recover power more quickly after a valve train separation event.
While 1/4 turn may be the "razor's edge" for max rpm operation, I've found I often get more valve train noise that way. If the ticking bothers you, try adjusting to 1/2 - 2/3 turn tight from tension release of the pushrods. Sometimes that extra bit of lifter plunger compression will quiet the valve train some, and if you have a street engine that isn't punching the rev limited all the time you may find it more to your liking (I do). Comp Cams Extreme Energy series has pretty aggressive ramp angles for a hydraulic roller lifter street motor, so I feel they tend to make a bit more valve train noise at low rpm. However, they also help create good flow under the lift curve, optimizing the breathing ability of conservative (street) valve timing. No free lunch, but IMO they are still a very good choice when matched with the proper springs.
If valve lash adjustment doesn't help your ticking noise, double check your valve train geometry; i.e., make sure the push rod length you have is creating a good, narrow contact pattern in the center of the valve stems. Good valve train geometry solves a number maladies that often get erroneously blamed on some other cause.
Finally, if after those checks you still have the ticking noise, look carefully inside your valve covers to see if any rockers might be touching somewhere on the valve cover while in operation. Any oil baffles in the top of the valve covers are especially prone to causing interference. If it's a very minor contact (likely if the noise isn't really loud), often the issue can be solved by doubling up on valve cover gaskets.
@Brad - Great news champion!! Yes, thrust clearances will always get you if they are tight...0.005 is Ok, but 0.006-0.008 would have been better
The Xe264 cam is a great unit for daily 5.0L duties. I have used it before. All the Comp Cams XE cams as stated above by Sunshine Guy are a bit noisy. Its unavoidable, that's just how they are. I had the exact same thing on all my XE cams. But they operate very well, deliver good vacuum, good manners and good power. I would personally recommend 1/2-2/3 turn past zero lash on the lifter preload. Its a bit tighter but will give quietest operation.
I am so happy to hear that the machine shop helped you out a bit as well. Also the new XE264 cam will be a night and day driving experience over the old B303 cam.
Thanks guys, but don’t pop the cork yet. About 5 mins after I posted I went out to do some more tinkering. Checked the oil, and that damn greyish sediment I saw before was on my clean cloth. I tore a small piece off to see if my magnet would pick it up. Yup. Metal.
So, 80km in I did another oil change and zipped the filter open. Saw a small amount of metal.....pretty sure there was no copper in there.
Hopefully it’s nothing,but I’m preparing for the worst. I notified a friend who works at the shop just so he’s aware. But if I have to pull this engine out again, a crate shortblock is going in.
As if my day needed a little more drama. When I was changing the oil and putting low profile drain plug back in....it broke off in the pan. It wasn’t even tight yet. Maybe it was heat fatigued. Luckily it wasn’t too tough to get out and I had a regular drain olug to put back in. Sheesh.
I am unsure how well the engine block and components were cleaned, but it might simply be a little left over metallic sludge from the previous failure combined with a bit of assembly goo. Keep a close eye on it, as it should diminish within 200-300 miles. Change oils twice within that time as the engine is fresh. Most metallic wearing in happens in the first 50-150 miles. I drop oils at 50 miles, 150 miles and 500 miles. then again at 1500 miles. Please make sure you use a "running in" oil..i.e. non synthetic and non friction modified oil. it will wear in best with that.
I am confident if all clearances are as per my previous post, then the engine will be OK, If it does indeed lunch itself then get a 331 crate stroker with 400+ hp and be done with it
And good riddens to that pest of a sump plug...the factory ones last forever
Thanks. Sounds like good advice. Planning on pulling rad in a few hundred miles to check endplay as well (squeezed for space to get a dial indicator there).
Also there are some very strong magnets that you clip onto the outside of the oil filter. If any traces of metal are in the system it will catch them...as the magnetic sump plugs are pretty weak in comparison.
Here is an example...you just need to get the right diameter for the filters that you are using
300 kms later I just did another oil and filter. The oil in the filter was filthy, but no metal that I could see and definitely no copper.
So, I think I’ll just replace oil and filter for now and do an endplay check in another few weeks. Will have the rad out to do that so will also take my upper intake and valve covers off and check my rockers. Will check wear pattern and retighten to 3/4 of turn rather than the 1/2 turn I initially did.
So far so good, I hope. Still getting tuning help from Decipha....still have an annoying bucking at 2k rpm that he can’t seem to tame.
300 kms later I just did another oil and filter. The oil in the filter was filthy, but no metal that I could see and definitely no copper.
So, I think I’ll just replace oil and filter for now and do an endplay check in another few weeks. Will have the rad out to do that so will also take my upper intake and valve covers off and check my rockers. Will check wear pattern and retighten to 3/4 of turn rather than the 1/2 turn I initially did.
So far so good, I hope. Still getting tuning help from Decipha....still have an annoying bucking at 2k rpm that he can’t seem to tame.
Hi Brad,
Filthy oil is pretty normal in the first few kms after a rebuild. This is where all of the rings are still bedding in (so a bit of blow by), all of the assembly goo dissolves into the oil as well. I am glad that you changed the oil again as you really want that early startup metal and gunk out of the engine quickly.
Yes its a good idea to check the valve tip wear pattern, just to be sure its centered properly and check that you have 1/2 to 3/4 turn for preload. I think you will be fine from hereon in with regards to engine dramas. If something is really wrong it will surface quickly.
Also is the bucking on coasting (i.e throttle off), light throttle (just touching), part throttle (light press) or full throttle runs ?
Thanks. Ya, the bucking is on light throttle going through (accel or decel) or trying to maintain 2k rpm. Eveything I’ve read online seems to point to a lean condition, but in closed loop the 02 sensors control fuel, and according to the logs, 02’s seem to be working as they should.
I’m using a Quarterhorse with TunerPro RT for logging.
Will be a few days. I decided since it’s on jackstands right now I may as well do that other work.
Won’t unhooking the 02’s force it to stay in open loop?
Will be a few days. I decided since it’s on jackstands right now I may as well do that other work.
Won’t unhooking the 02’s force it to stay in open loop?
Yes that right, unplugging the sensors forces open loop mode . That way you will see if the O2 circuit it affects the bucking. If it goes away, its the o2 sensor circuit (likely sensors), if not then its in the base map somewhere. Some O2 sensors may not throw an error code, but they can give the ECU erroneous data because of a fault they have. I had the same thing happen to me...bad sensor on one bank...caused havoc...bucking when cold...backfire in intake when cold. Mostly went away when warm. No errors on ECU...but saw O2 sensor was sending incorrect voltage to ECU upon further investigation...bad sensor was telling ECU to remove fuel through incorrect voltage reading...replaced both sensors...it was then perfect
It may or not be a lean condition...not sure if you can monitor A/F ratios with a wideband whilst its bucking...but it would be good to see what it does from a fueling perspective at the bucking point.
I may have discovered something regarding my thrust bearing failure.
Today I took out my rad to make room to mount a dial indicator. Before installing the engine i confirmed the builder stated .005” of endplay.
I mounted my gauge, lightly tapped the middle of the crank pulley to push the crank rearward, zero’d out the gauge, pulled forward on the crank and could not get it to move. Tried again, same result. You can probably see where this is going....
Sooooo......I disconected the slave from the bellhousing to free up the clutch. Tried to make my neasurements again and got my .005” ish endplay. Reinstalled the slave with the usual small preload, and remeasured the endplay. Once again I could not get the crank to move back. The clutch is applying constant force to the thrust bearing. I’m I correct in thinking that should not be the case?
In any case, I loosened up the adjuster nut to the point where I can tap the crank back....disengaging the clutch does push it forward again, but I presume that is normal operation. After releasing the pedal I am still able to tap the crank back, and I appear to still have lots of movement on the fork to disengage the clutch completely. My endplay actually measures closer to.006 now, so I may have worn the bearing surface. Hopefully not enough to have to pull the engine. And yes, I feel like a complete idiot. Checking that should have been my first move.
04-13-2020, 06:28 PM
