movieboy4fun

To Start:
Found a deal too good to pass up on so I now have a 12200411 PCM and 5.7 Vortec from a 2002 Express Van and I want to install in my Street Drag Miata, still looking for candidate as my current Miata project gets a 331 f0rD in separate build thread.

added bonus parts from another friends project:
383 stroker kit plus 8.5 to 1 blower pistons
Novi Blower
inter cooler, cam, ram intake, headers, 80mm TB, 65# injectors, massaged Vortec heads, SS valves etc etc. So to make a long story short I love DIY electronics and am looking froward to tuning the 411, done many EFI Rustangs, this will be my first Chevy. I would like verification of my programming idea below:

Have 12200411 stock PCM with 12212156 OS 2002 van
Have 12200411 with Moates Roadrunner installed
Have Tuner Pro LT with Roadrunner support
Have AVT 853 cable (almost)
Have LS1 Flash ( thanks demented 24/7)
Infinite patience and enjoy a good hardware/software hack

My idea being, use Tuner Pro to program, on the fly, my Moates Roadrunner PCM over a period of time to perfect my tune with the above additions, then once dialed in, save the BIN file and then re program my stock express van PCM with my AVT 853 cable and LS1 Flash. First changing the original OS of the PCM from 12212156(2002) to 12208322(2001) so the public XDF file,(again demented 24/7) I have for tunerpro works with the 2001 411 table locations. Burn my image from the Moates 411 to my newly updated OS 411, plug into car and be a very happy camper, leaving me with a Moates 411 for future projects, yeah there is always time for more, LOL. Is there a flaw with this logic and I guess I will find out soon as I am going to attempt the above once the AVT cable arrives at the local FeDeX outlet.

Thanks
Happy Programming

charchri4

Wow I wish I could help but I was lost half way through the first sentence. I have an HP tuners set up but not even enough know how to be dangerous. Need to get a wideband some day too...

movieboy4fun

The wiring, building interfaces and running software is easy stuff for me. I am willing to share my experience with this as I picked it all up in the super boat shop I help at. Where my issue comes about is the actual tuning of the PCM/ECM it's self. I have just loaded pre-done Bins from Mercruiser, Teague Performance, Illmor etc. I also understand the eeprom emulation ( Moates Roadrunner (chev) Moates Quaterhoarse(ford) and I am very happy to share my experience in assisting others with setting this stuff up to work with Windows or Linux, in fact I use a bluetooth dongle to monitor/log my race car when my wife is driving. I understand loaders, bootstraps, Bins, Binary/Hex editors, burners and all of the stuff it takes to make the magic happen. Now I need help with removing VATS, updating MAF functions and timing/fueling tables.

As to the LS1 - 411 stuff, I am intrigued, I was going MS II for my ECM until I found the awesome program (LS1 Flash) written by Demented 24/7 at 3rd Gen F Bodies as well as his XDF file that allows Tuner Pro RT to work with the 411 bin files.

Never give up never surrender!!!!

523-LSX-NB

It's really not as simple as loading files from other tuners & updating MAF & timing tables. It needs to be tuned from scratch starting w/ an Auto VE log & moving forward from there. If the noted software does not allow for logging all engine feedback + the creation of dedicated temporary tune files like Auto VE, then (2) very good & well supported tuning software providers are EFI Live & HP tuners, including on-line forums for tuning support.

charchri4

Removing the VATS is one click in HP tuners. I think it will be really obvious to you once you open up the soft ware and start digging around. The rest I am clueless on.

movieboy4fun

523-LSX-NB .... Thanks for your reply but I do know a few things for a fact. The Moates Roadrunner 12200411 PCM,( $599.00) is a Factory 411 with an EEPROM emulator installed so you can both log/view and change the tune on the fly to alter any of your look up tables,(great product), I am very familiar with EEPROM emulation and know that part will work with the Tuner Pro RT software and at $39.00 and unlimited programming options it kicks both EFI Live and HP Tuners for DIY.

Tuner Pro RT allows you to alter the look up tables/mapping ( Roadrunner installed) and once a tune has been established it can then be read back out of the Roadrunner eeprom and saved as an unencrypted bin file,( here is where the other tuning software fail for the DIY guys). Once I have the tuned BIN file I am finished with the Tuner Pro Software and I switch to loading a new factory 411 PCM.
Note: Tuner Pro RT only works with the 411 because of the excellent programming skills of (dimented 24/7) who released a freeware XDF definition file. I also use this software and freeware XDF files on , Ford,BMW M3, and my Illmor Viper V10's,( super boat). Just need the right XDF definition and you can log/monitor any of the OBD2 functions.

To load the new BIN into my factory 411 PCM without the Moates Roadrunner installed, I need an AVT-853 cable ($350) that also works with my other factory programmers and the FREEWARE - LS1 FLASH,( again dimented 24/7 to the rescue). Many kudos go out to his talent and sharing of code, look him up at 3rg gen F body. So now the tricky part, because my stock 411 happens to be a 2002 PCM it will need the OS (ver. 12212156) flashed to the earlier version,(12208322). I only need to do this step because I only have the XDF definition file for the earlier OS and GM changed the OS on the 411 in 2002 to standardize the table locations across the board. I may develop / find a XDF file at a later date to allow the never OS, clear as mud right? Next build a bench power supply,( must maintain 12.4 volts while programming), and plug in your AVT-853 ( use an old OBD2 connector on bench setup) and fire up LS1 FLASH. Select comm port and click connect, now we are dangerous, trust me this is when you will brick your PCM if you are not careful. Now we can read the OS, (think of the OS as Windows on a puter). Select the saved older ver. of OS,( saved from 2001 411 PCM) from your Hard Drive) and flash to factory 411. Once the OS is flashed you can then proceed with flashing the BIN/tables,( think of this as software like EXCEL), that you saved off of the Moates Roadrunner 411 to your now changed OS 411.
Voila if all goes well you will now be the owner of a custom DIY tuned 411 for your project, leaving you with a Moates Roadrunner 411 PCM to tune for the next project and unlimited number of vehicles. I choose to use Tuner Pro RT because of price and I am not brand loyal, I don't understand that foolhardyness, LOL. some of the fastest cars I have seen were a 351 4V Cleavland powered corvette and my fave,( makes Dodge guys cringe) is a 70 Duster with a 572 chev, both are insane fast but create such issues for people at the track, oh well good fun!!!

So after spewing all that, this is where I stand, I know the above procedure works as I have witnessed/helped with setting this up on my friends 98 Siverado, I helped in swapping out the old black box PCM to the 411 PCM and just removed the old PCM plug and repinned it with a new PCM plug. Took us 5 hrs start to finish, however I just loaded a pre-modified bin that had the VATS, 2nd O2's,speedo calibration, etc. already done. Still leaves me with no tuning experience LOL, but I sure can load a file.

thanks
Dean0

523-LSX-NB

I'm glad that you knew that Moates Roadrunner is capable of logging, etc. How would you expect me to know? That's why I said "If the noted software does not allow for logging."

There really can be no other reason for your thread than to stroke your own ego. I was afraid that this site would be just another extension of M.net & that notion is proving to be true.

charchri4

Oh man I really hope not! No question the guys that post more are more extraverted than the guys that don't post much but there have not been very many distasteful posts around here and we do have a place just for the egos to go. As you will note from all the videos I post in there!

Personally I am really glad to see someone that wants to talk about tuning because I am just starting to dip my toe in that water and I think movieboy could be a great resource to our community in that regard. If it is all for ego he won't last long because he won't get much response around here. I fear more that no one can help him at his level though...

But honestly since they hung the mod thing on me last winter there has only been one thread that I have edited and one friendly notice sent reminding a user the rules for advertising without being a sponsor. Granted we don't have anywhere near the traffic here as Mnet but I hope we are not and never become like the other V8 forums around.

On a personal side note Kevin the reason for the format change was because you and Gator came on the scene. All of the sudden we had a guy with 12 years of experience and a guy that bought a FM build that wanted to be apart of this thing but no real place to discuss life after the build. There is no question we are a better site precisely because we have guys like you that want to hang out and your share your treasure trove of knowledge. There is no way I could have built my car with out this site and guys like you and that is exactly why I hang out and try to give something back to this community. OK yeah and to show off in the video section... So if you ever see something that crosses a line or is distasteful or offensive please let Jason or myself know right away.

Gator Bait

Not sure how all that is a preferable route instead of HPtuners or efiLive as they take minutes rather than hours, but sounds like you have a plan. Look forward to hearing how it works out for you.

movieboy4fun

523-LSX-NB,
Did not mean to offend you in any way, just trying to show how far I have moved along at this point on my 411 idea. As to Craig M. I did not think I was promoting him, I was just explaining how my buddy did his 411 conversion with whats available without buying one of the big guys programs and locked with two VIN's, I am a true DIY'er. As to the original J3 connector that M.net started with, he used public domain plans that my university room mate released back in the early 90's. His Engineering thesis was reverse engineering the EEC IV ford PCM and designing the Xinlix controlled J3 adapter, I bet I still have his design doodles somewhere in my old files.

As to the Roadrunner, that was my buddies way of doing it and the easier way. I have built my own EEPROM emulator from Freeware plans I obtained from the net and I actually use a plain old HEX editor to work with my BINS. Again only recommending Tuner Pro for the ease of its use instead of jumping from address to address in a HEX editor. I am sure if I was to look through my old files I would find the Freeware plans for the roadrunner too, research is just another term for plagerization, LOL.

Gator Bait
The reason for the swap to the 411 PCM is it is Faster, better resolution tables, and can control COP with Fly by wire on a Corvette tune, my ultimate goal so I can use traction control. The old "black Box" PCM's do not handle boost well and just are not as capable as the 411. I even have a custom OS for the 411 that allows RPM switches, 2 stage rev control, ETC.

charchri4
No worries, apologize for the previous strong post, I just wanted to make it clear that I understand how to program, emulate and build interfaces, I just lack knowledge in adjusting the tune but I will keep at it, never give up never surrender.

I will be posting updates as I discover them and am happy to help any of the true DIY'ers out there, if I can help I will. I will end with this question for now.

How much of the build does one have to do on his project to be able to say, I built that??

Happy New Year to all
Dean0

charchri4

Now that right there is why I love this place. The notion never crossed my mind but a damn good and very interesting question and deserves a post of it's own somewhere!

movieboy4fun

Done

523-LSX-NB

You started a thread asking for advise on EFI tuning. You were given (2) excellent resources to go to & learn how to tune. Instead of using that information, you chose to bash them & continued to talk about operating systems. Although I could tune your car in my sleep, there's nothing more that will be offered.

tbone heller

movieboy4fun

523-LSX-NB,
Do you honestly think I haven't researched the before mentioned software?! ( yes, yes I think you do), but I will take you up on your offer to tune my PCM in your sleep, I think that would be quite entertaining. Send me a private message with your addy,( Here is mine in case your in the neighborhood, Reids Corner, Rutland Rd N, BC) and I will buy the beer while I document your sleep tune, please!

I really wanted to promote the DIY theme that I witnessed on this great site,(after 6 months of trolling) and thought I would try and join the community and help with sharing my knowledge of loading RAW BINS and EEPROM emulating for the true need to know DIY'ers. I thought maybe somebody was as hardcore as me when it comes to playing with LO-JACK interfaces and may have knowledge of working with RAW bins. Just so things are clear, its not a $ thing, its a quest for knowledge for me. Hell my boat burns 200 gallons/hr taps open at 125MPH, just trailer it for a few weekends and I could purchase whatever software I needed, LOL. I will stick with the HOLDEN guys in AUSSIE for my needed info on tuning the 411 but will be happy to assist anyone in the future as I absorb more. Just so every one knows there is a great little program that will edit your VIN# to whatever you want and unlock a locked BIN for reading into any of the popular tuners. Long live Freeware!!

I understand that every one has different things they enjoy and are good at, hence why we have tuners, engine builders, body-men, frame experts and so on. That is why I ask those pro's questions. I thank 523-LSX-NB for the info but as you can see its not exactly what I am looking for, so I will ask my RAW BIN tuning questions elsewhere and assist other DIY'ers if I can with my knowledge. I will drop this thread for now and go back to my build thread, just got excited when I picked up all the above pieces for a steal of a deal.

Party on and enjoy the new year.
Dean0

willieblomquist

Just wanted to shout out a 'Thanks'
As a noob it helps to read and try and understand how others have went about getting done what they needed to do. To a noob there is value just seeing how the file types and components are used in the context of getting a task done.
Thanks for taking the time to write it all down and post!

charchri4

Hey great 1st post willie! Now tell us who you are and what you are building!! Please...

willieblomquist

In short, I want to swap a LS 5.3 or 4.8 into a NC.
I am wrestling with the 4.8 extra 80 pounds...but cheaper.
Leaning to the 5.3 because as they say , 'Light Makes Right'
Currently I am paying of debt and learning.
Mucho Thanks for the Welcome!