Price Opinion: 1994 Monster Miata with 38k Miles
 

I need an opinion of pricing for a 1994 Monster Miata (Martin Conversion), performed in 1996 on a car with only 35,000 mile car. The engine is a pre-1994 Ford HO, and there are minor differences between the 1994-1995 engine from this 1990 - 1993 engine; however, the car is California Registered and is ID tagged as a 1994 engine in a 1994 car, as it passed with 1994 smog equipment in place. Drivetrain also consists of a T-5 Transmission and a Thunderbird 7.5 Rear end. The car is equipped with Air Conditioning and otherwise appears virtually stock, until you open the hood or notice the dual exhaust pipes. Bumpers have been painted (had minor scuffing), otherwise it has original paint on all the metal surfaces with no major dents or scratches. The interior is also excellent as you would expect for a car with only 38,000 miles as the car was driven only 3,000 miles since the conversion in 1996. The car drives and looks great.

Can you please provide me with an opinion of pricing?

Thanks,

vincesf

Are you selling or buying? If you're selling, I am interested in the price also!

I am selling and wanted the opinion of the forum members as to a price to help me determine an asking price.

vincesf

Spring time

$13,000-$17,000

This time of the year

$11,000-$15,000

Just depends how motivated your are to sell it.

Sold my 5.0 powered 94M (Martin converted like yours) last year for $14,800, after advertising it for over 2 months at $16,000, then $15,000 car was as clean as it could be and all stock in appearance.


Bill S.

Have you any idea of the engine HP? Might be interested as well.

I don't, but do not believe the engine is modified from its original form other than the Martin exhaust manifolds and air intake.

vincesf

If it is stock then it should be about 205 if a '93 . Need to check and see what it would take to get it to around 300 at the wheels. Perhaps some Ford guys can help with the cost of the add ons to get it another 100 hp or so.
Where is the car located?

It is located in the San Francisco Bay Area, and has always been a California car, and no rust.

vincesf

Vince,
Thanks for the info. Did I read your post correct in that it has only been driven 3,000 miles in 17 years since it was done in 1996?

Start at $20K, California smog legal will make it worth every bit of that amt.

Stock brakes and suspsension?

3000 mile in 9 years really? Wow I put more than that on mine last month! Must be why you are selling it then?

I know emissions is a big deal in CA but 20K is way too high IMO. I've seen really nice LS cars go for less than that and with a pretty low performance car like this one it's just not realistic. I could see 14ish because of the low miles and if you want to sell it tomorrow 12. GLWS!!!

I would think with everyone here having or building one of these, you would be pushing him to sell it as high as possible. One says 20 another says 12. I would list as high as possible and then deal. The reality is that if someone is really wanting one, it isn't like they have 10 to choose from at any given time. If you ask $20 and don't need to sell it, you will get it sooner or later. But if you want to get rid of it quick, there is always someone that will see it and say "eh, I'll pay that". But in my opinion, they are just looking for some cheap fun and it's worth more than that.

Well California is not like Minnesota. If you know how to legally register an LS powered Miata in California please let me know. I will have the first one, as it is now I have to drive an under power 5.0 that only puts 270 HP to the rear wheels. But at least its legal and passes smog every two year.

Oh yeah I would love to say it's worth 20 grand for sure! I would be thrilled if the market was higher for these cars and I could sell my car for what I have into it. You won't get any arguement from me about that and no question you can't get more bang for the buck then a V8 Miata in any car.

But that is not the point or the issue here. I said what I said based on actively watching the V8 Miata market for the last 3 years. Yes it is a very narrow niche market with few cars in it but there are also not that many guys with 20 grand of disposable income to spend on a car that blue books at 4000 and would not be their primary car.

Absolutely passing emissions in all 50 states and having super low miles on it is a significant benefit to the car. But if you dig around you will see cars at this same level going for under 14 pretty regularly. I've got 16000 into my car and it's probably worth about 12500 as it sits. In this case even as a nice low mile Martian build I bet he has way more than 16 into it and will take a bigger loss than that.

I don't make the rules guys it's just the way it is in the market and if you feel I am wrong show me the numbers. IMO the only way vincesf can come close to breaking even in the car is if he keeps it, drives it and loves it till he wears it out!

PS no my car is not for sale at 12,500 my son already owns it...:eek5:

Being a new guy who wants a Miata V-8's and really watching the prices lately, I would agree with Jim on the value. I think that this looks like a clean car with a nice body which is very important to me but the low power would keep me from buying this car. If I built it(or had it built) to get over 300 to the rear wheels, I would have many more thousands into the car. I thought about it until I figured how much it would cost to get the additional power. Not living in Calif, I can't say how much the smog issue counts into a buy. Perhaps with the amount of population there, the seller will find a buyer willing to pay a good price. The only way the owner will know is to advertise it and see what happens. You can always start high and go low better then the other way around. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

All good advice, and yes the car was driven only 3,000 miles since 1996 (800 by the former owner and 2,200 by me). The former owner, who had Martin convert the car in 1996, was a car collector, and owner of a California Mazda dealership. I was very lucky to get the car through the California Smog system, as the former owner had Dealer plates on the car since 1996, and never needed to register/smog it. Very understandable that my car is probably not as desirable for someone that wants more horsepower. I get that, but I wanted a car that I can drive on the Streets, and the California process is just a nightmare, something that I do not want to go through again. The other thing that I like about this car is that it attracts very little unwanted attention. The car looks like a stock Miata, which to me is more attractive than Miata's with huge flares and hood domes (again a personal preference).

Pricing opinions vary between $12,000 to $20,000, I appreciate it.

vincesf

Two factors could place this car at the $20K point, pedigree and standardization.

I know it seems strange but Ford conversions built by Martin or with his kit still get more money that LS powered cars with much more power or non-kit builds. I think it has to do with the "pedigree" of his design going back to the initial attempts at putting V8 power in a Miata by Monster Motorsports in 1993. I'm sure this will change in time as Flyin' Miata builds come up for resale but for now its pretty consistent.

The second factor that may help this car in the $20K area is that it still looks completely stock and has not been customized by anyone. The more personalization someone puts into a V8 Miata the smaller the already small market becomes.

My advice would be to give it a few "modest" mods that can get the power up beyond the stock crank 225 hp. A set of GT-40 heads can be had for under $500 and with a GT40 explorer intake could easily add another 50 to 60 horsepower without having to mess with the tune.

I say put it at $20k and see what you can get. 5 years ago it would easily have pulled that. The people who are looking to buy cars like this are often not as effected by the current economic climate as those who are selling. It's a limited market but also a very limited supply. Remember that and stick to your guns.

-Jason

Jason:

Thank you, it is appreciated.

vincesf

For what it's worth I've yet to see Jason wrong on anything.

So let's start a numbers pool on what it sells for. I'll put 5 bucks on 14K selling between now and March 1st.

Save the $5.00, as I would much rather keep and enjoy the car, then sell it at that $14,000. Of course if my spouse becomes mad at me and sells the car while I am out of town for $1, then I could be eating my words. I always hear about those stories and always hoped to be the recipient of such a giveaway, but never want to be on the other end. Joking aside, if I do sell, it will probably be on the higher range of what has been suggested because of what Jason wrote in his post (pedigree, reliability, condition and low miles) and may wait until Spring. Funny, it's 75 degrees and beautiful today in the SF Bay Area, it feels like Spring, but understand that cold weather is coming in some States, limiting the desirability for a convertible.

vincesf

The brakes and suspension are NOT stock but were upgraded with the conversion by Martin. And yes 3,000 miles in 17 years not 9 years.

vincesf

Jason,
Not that is makes much difference but I thought the '93 had 205 crank HP?
Your idea for the GT heads and intake make good sense. In folks opinion, would the low mileage (3,000 in 17 years) be a negative due to lack of use and possible rust and seal damage? Still thinkin about options and trying to learn...

My opinion; I'd consider Trick Flow and AFR165 heads as another path to 300 wheel HP. And no, my bet is that the car is as clean underneath as it is on top. Very surprised if any rust or other issues due to low mileage. To me it's a huge positive. Of course with any major purchase a close inspection is prudent.

I agree with Jason, $20k range is the appropriate ball park.

Remember I said start at $20K, a quick check on Martin's site shows his last California legal car sold for $24k and a current listing of $24K for a legal California car. Anybody that wants to build a California car and get it passed by the B.A.R is not going to get it done on the cheep. I will agree if you live in one of the few normal states then the price goes down. Then again maybe its worth the hassle, I only had the top up once in five years when I got caught in a small rain shower and I drive the car year around.

No rust and no leaks. The car has been well cared for, and taken out for regular exercise.

vincesf

Ya know the more I think about this the more I see it's just like shopping for a guitar. The $200 Squire strat looks and functions exactly like the $2000 Clapton signature strat to all but a hand full of people. I've seen a good Ford build with some hail damage sell for $6800 and I've seen a supercharged Ford build sell for $24,500. With the exception of the hood and a few ponies both cars looked and functioned the same.

I don't begin to understand the emissions thing you guys have to put up with or what that does to the value but it sounds like it is significant. From a quick search it looks like 31 states have some sort of vehicle emission inspections. Some are just in limited areas and some are a simple OBD scan. From what I can tell there are about 10 states where it would be a challenge to operate a converted Miata. That leaves ruffly 40 states where passing emission still adds value but probably a lot less.

I can conceptualize the idea of a Martian or FM build bringing some value in the market place due to the "factory build" factor adding credibility. To me personally when I see the outstanding craftsmanship in most of the build threads here I tend to go in the other direction. The guy that builds his own pride and joy may be less experienced at assembling a V8 Miata but he certainly has more personal investment in the car. I can see a kit adding value due to the proven track record, but if the car is a kit I really can't see that the name of the mechanic or the name on the building the car is assembled in means much to the value of the car.

So perhaps there is sort of a split market out there. Obviously there is value to many for having the factory build the car or Martian and FM would not have anything going on in their shops. And clearly there is value to passing emissions to folks in the areas that require that. Perhaps that is the prime market and then there is a subprime market where those items are unnecessary luxuries that add little value.

Just kind of thinking about loud here not saying I'm right at all.

jim,
I tend to agree. But, if I were the seller, I would advertise on the high side and see what happens. He can always go down and if time is not a large factor then this is a no lose. I like the car for the pristine condition its in and the low miles. It must have been inside most of the time due its looks. If it were closer to me, I would take a look at it and see if it is worth the extra $$ to get it closer to where I want to be in HP. That would depend however on the price. Again, the seller can always lower his price and I would start high just to see. I am sure there are a number of folks who would jump if the price were right and it seems there is no agreement of what "right" is so I would start on the high end and see what happens. And Jim, I would go for the Clapton Strat.

Good analogy, though a car has a few more moving parts that if go wrong involve more than fixing a broken string, but I get that a Clapton Strat, costing 10 X more than a Squire Strat, does not play 10 x better than a $200 Squire Strat. Still, if I could, I would go for the Clapton Strat as well.

vincesf

Trick Flow + AFR would get him another 60 to 70 hp for $2000

A set of 1996 Explorer GT40 heads, intake and throttle would get him 50 to 60 hp for under $400 and look more stock.

AFR's are superior to iron GT40's but don't get you the same return on your investment.

Low use is only really an issue if the car sat outside. If it was kept in a climate-controlled environment I'd suspect it's fine as long as it that 3000 miles was not just one cross country trip 8 years ago or something.

-Jason

I think the value of a kit build over a "home brew" is due to the predictability of the quality of the workmanship of the major components. Other than two 8" welds attaching the "torque mount" to the rear subframe there is no welding done by the builder if one uses a Monster Miata kit. Most have that small bit of welding done by the exhaust show when the exhaust is built.

Welding is very hit or miss. Some people know how to do it and some do not. If someone does a crappy job welding up their homemade version of diff hanger, trans crossmember, k-frame or even the oil pan the car could be seriously unsafe. The welds may even look good (or have been cleaned up) and still may be unsafe. Buying a car built with a kit ensures that at least the major components were built by someone who has done this 500+ times, not a retired dentist who took a welding class at the local community college and then decided to weld together a car.

(Thinking out loud) This may have something to do with the reason why non-FM bow-tie builds even with a kit are selling for less than Monster Miata kit builds. Both of the LSx kits by there very nature require a lot more welding in some very important places (the rear end and tunnel) an thus a higher level of welding competence to pull off. Taking the chance on structural welds done by someone who is not a professional welder lowers the car's overall value.

-Jason

Jason,
Good point about the weld vs bolt-on integrity issue. Given the car has around 220 crank hp give or take and you put the new heads, intake and for between $400 and $2000 gain additional 65 hp. You are still a ways from 300 at the wheels. I'll admit it looks like a fine car and have thought about it but given the distance and starting price which I believe Vince will ask, will wait and see....For a prospective buyer, these discussions are very valuable..

One Question: With a Monster kit, is the wiring all consistant plug and play or does each kit vary from car to car in how everything is wired? For me, this would be an issue as well..

If the car was built by Monster Motorsports, Martin Wilson himself or by someone using my converted harness then yes, the wiring should be the same. Martin's kit provides pretty good instructions on how to modify and hook up the Mustang harness so even those who attempt it themselves would have some consistency. Being OBD1 its not that complex of a harness.

-Jason

Jason, thanks for the info about the harness.
This is a learning curve for me.

Vince,
In March of 2012, you had some issues with the wiring and the car throwing codes. What did you find in your search?

Again, thank you to all those members that responded to my inquiry regarding pricing. A few takeaways:

1. Range of Value is $12,000 to $18,000 in the Winter months, and perhaps up to $2,000 more in warmer months.

2. 38,000 miles for an almost 20 year car or 3,000 miles on a 17 year-old conversion provides concerns regarding rust and issues that crop up for non-use, while others appreciate a well preserved low mileage example.

3. A Martin Monster conversion is desirable to some who appreciate a well engineered, documented and proven conversion, while for others it is woefully lacking in horsepower and not worth the cost of buying and having to spend additional money to modify for more performance.

4. The car being California street legal is quite rare and costly to convert for California street use, but it means virtually nothing (other than lack of performance) for those in 40+ other States, with less stringent emissions requirements.

Taking all this in, perhaps I should concentrate on selling the car locally, as being California street legal, and there being no winter issues (for a good portion of the State) it may be best appreciated by those locally. In California our options are limited, and I do not wish this emissions and title process on anyone. While the car may not have 300 horsepower, it is well sorted, and has more power than many know what to do with for street use.

Thanks again for all the input, it is appreciated.

vincesf

I took the car to a mechanic who was able to contact Martin and it was an easy fix. The wiring issues were addressed and the car has been well sorted out.

vincesf

I gotta tell you Jason after watching the market for a long time I am just not seeing that. Sure there are some 20+K sales of Monster kits but there are sub 10K sales too. I have no proof of this but my gut says if you put all the sales for the last couple years in an excel sheet and average them out, there would be 1/3rd as many LS builds sold as Monsters but on average they would be a couple thousand higher in the sell price. That is a total hunch but it almost has to be that way since they all the parts that go into them cost more than a Monster. But you have been in this way longer than me so I could be way off!

From what I have seen it is really not the ultimate buyer beware you would think it would be. It might actually be less risky because the car is so highly modified. My thought is anyone can put headers and lowering springs in a Mustang but a project like this is so big and expensive that it probably weeds out most guys that are not truly up to the task. No question there is much more comfort for most buyers in a kit and as a rank armature there is no way I would attempt to build a K member for a car. But you don’t have to go far in the build threads here to find some mighty fine armchair engineers out there that have done work I would be proud to own. At the risk of sounding full of myself my welds are not much to look at but I would put the structure of my trans mount up against the big 3 mounts any day. It’s lighter and has a shorter span plus it ties the corners of the car together. IMO other than ascetics it is in every way a better mount. I guess I am just saying yes the known quality of the kits you can put a price tag on but there is also some good fabricators doing excellent custom work out there that has plenty of value.

I think for the most part the guys that build these cars are pretty much just like me. They like to tinker in the shop and be creative in trying new ventures. Whether it’s a swing set for the kids, redoing the kitchen for the wife or a car for themselves they build stuff because they enjoy building stuff. Most do not intend to sell the project and don’t really care or give much thought to breaking even on it. The sense of accomplishment a well completed project brings is more than enough value to them to build it. And because of that with a few very hacked up exceptions I have seen I think most guys see the build is a direct reflection on them and do the very best they can on it.

It’s pretty easy to see when someone has gotten in over his head or cut corners but really at this level you don’t very often see hay wire holding exhaust systems together. Yes I know I have flex pipe in mine so go a head and give me crap for using that example! But beyond that sort of evaluation it is hard to compare apples to apples because every build is so different. For example my build is a rats nest under the hood because I could care less what it looks like under there. A lot of guys are the opposite and go to great lengths to hide things and keep it clean. Both are good functional builds just very different. A lot of guys just want a simple easy to drive cruiser with soft suspension and a stock engine but I enjoy the sound and feeling more like a race car and the drivability challenges that brings. Both are good builds just different. So I think it’s important to look at the intent of the car as much as the build quality when you see one.

Speaking of intent I have seen a flyin miata swap up close and personal and honestly I was kind of disappointed. It was neat and clean as I expected but really did not look any different than any other basic build. Keep in mind one of FMs goals is to look as factory as possible so they want all the parts to look like they belong with everything be neat and organized rather than custom. Given the price tag most owners are pretty well off and probably not very handy so having it look like it came straight from GM is probably a great selling point. But I can't begin to think it was worth 10K more than a clean stock looking build like Shannons or Pats just because FM put it together.

OK so I'm thinking out loud and rambeling away again on you... Sorry but this has been an outstading discussion I have enjoyed very much! Go ahead and fire back and my :bs:

I am about as far from an expert as you will get here but from checking all the prices I can find in my quest for a car, I do think concentrating in California will be your best bet to get close to $20. I would still advertise on all the sites but given what has been said about the inspection issue, I think your price could best be appreciated by California buyers...Also, don't give up during the Winter as Spring and Summer are much better to sell so don't get discouraged..

I would contact Martin at Monster Miata. He may have some leads for California customers that he could share.

This poor guy could only muster $7600 on ebay. Granted that's not the best place to list one but still pretty sad for such a fine car.

Mazda MX 5 Miata V8 | eBay

Pasting the ad here for when the auction dies people can still see what it was.

92 Monster Miata. Classic red, black interior, pwr windows. Manual steering, no a/c
Complete monster motorsports conversion
engine is a 306 from a 94 mustang, completely rebuilt with approx 500 miles on it.New pistons, roller rockers, oil pump, timing cover, harmonic balancer, lifters, arp rod main and head bolts. new valve springs etc. Runs very strong but has daily drivability
Transmission is a wc t-5 rebuilt with a ford racing kit including new syncros and bearings
diff is a t-bird diff rebuilt with a new ford lsd unit.
Suspension is spec miata bilsteins with eibach springs and awr adjustable collars. corrado rotor 11" front brakes and rear 1.8 brakes.
949 6ul 15x9 with toyo ra1 225/45/15 tires
Interior is fitted with autometer gauges and a set of cobra monaco pro seats. Driver side on sliders. passenger is a fixed mount.
hard dog double diagonal roll bar and hard dog door bars.
Convertible top and removable hardtop included with sale.
I do have a 303 cam that will also come with the sale.

This car is very nimble and very streetable. Normal around town driving you would not even know there was a v8 in it. Still handles like a miata, repainted in 09. Few chips and scratches but nothing major. Installed garage vary lip and kg works trunk spoiler.This is the modern day Cobra. Very reliable car. You could not build one for what the reserve is set at. The car is for sale locally and I do reserve the right to end the auction early. The car is located in Northeast Pennsylvania. Feel free to stop by and take a look.

I believe this car has been listed in the classifieds here.

It is, and I'm surprised its priced as low as it is. The price of these cars really dropped a TON. Kind of glad I just parted mine.

Not sure why. I have just started looking and there does not seem to be too much out there. Perhaps because I want a stock looking, good conditioned turn key car with at least 300 NA wrhp as well as PS and A/C. Many of the cars on the classifieds are no longer for sale. Perhaps, this is just a bad time of year or a cycle where the sellers are not finding the buyers. One thing that may stop many first time buyers is that they are not sure what they are looking at so they do not pull the trigger on that car with a "good price". Jason has stated that the prices should be higher as well. I think that with these cars, the seller has to hold on till the right buyer comes along but then, I don't know their reasons for selling..Then again, I have never tried to sell one of these cars..

I think we can not discount the effect of the economy on the pricing of cars like this as well. A V8 Miata by its very nature is a "poor man's supercar" and often the first thing to go from the garage when things start to get tight. Because these sellers are only looking to unload, not turn a profit, they are letting the cars go for far less than they have in them. While this is great for the cars (its gotten a lot of them out of garages and back on the street where they belong) its not the best situation for someone who is trying to actually make money on building them like my father and I. Thus, we have not attempted to build one for the last 3 years.

I do think it will turn around given time but it may take a few years. By that point a few FM LS conversions should have come up for sale which should help boost their value as well.

I may be looking into NC/new 5.0 or even FS-R/LSx swaps in the future I think.

-Jason

Jason,
I did see one FM/LS for sale and it was in the high 30's and it retailed for around $50 new. Also, another done prior to FM starting production but with their parts for the mid 30's. Still, a ways from what most want to pay for " a poor man's supercar". As I said, there are those that want a turnkey V-8 Miata and don't know what to look for in a build. I, for one, would pay more for one built by MRM because you know what you are doing. Others may as well but many do not trust "garage" fabricators. If you are thinking of attempting a build again, please contact me. I agree, the economy is not the best for selling toys...

At the risk of being chastised, when you start edging up past the 20K mark for a V8 Miata, you then bump up against the Cobra replica market. When you put the two up against each other, the Cobra has a tendency to draw more of the attention that most owners are going for. powerful V8 in a small, light weight convertible.


Bill S.

I think Jason has a really good point with the poormans super car idea and I think there is another factor along those lines. I've never tried but my guess is it would not be possible to get a loan on one. Book value on the cars is 20% of what they sell for so no bank would touch it. I know one guy with 20 grand in the bank that could spend on a toy like this but I know a lot of guys that have loans on more expensive sports cars than we are talking here. Then there is that pesky little voice of reason that comes along...

Not chastising but I don't agree. I've looked at building a cobra several times and I always give it up when I get over 40K. (Actually my first choice would be a factory five 33 but that's another story) Also between the gawk factor and no top they are not a practical daily driver. I park my car at walmart or where ever all the time and don't give it a 2nd thought. It's just an old Miata who would mess with it? On the rare day I want to draw attention to myself I just open the exhaust cut out...:cool:

IMO other than performance numbers the Cobra is a completely different animal. - But don't get me wrong they are both GREAT animals!

As the owner of a Cobra & a Monster Miata, I can tell you that it is much cheaper to buy used than to build it yourself. I would rather spend the extra money, myself, than have to encounter the previous owner's shortcuts.

Funny, it's 75 degrees and beautiful today in the SF Bay Area, it feels like Spring, but understand th....

Just had to rub it in to us snow bound people?...argh.

Also see the other for sale and sold thread on a similar but lower mileage martin beauty and what it sold for. Shocking.

Jason, look at 911 v8 swaps. I just went through an electric supercharger experiment and you need to go after the clientele with money. 10-20 year old cars for five grand customers are not the same as those with a 20grand cars that cost them 40k - type people. There is no money to be made selling to people with no money.

And porsche engines are 10k to rebuild and you get a whopping 285hp. If you offered a complete turn key ? 350hp conversion for 15k, or 450 for ?20k? and it was a crate ford or chev, i know what i would chose, IF if cooling and reliability was worked out and my engine just blew. In fact I know a lot of 911 guys are waiting for that day. Pturbo car rebuilds are 25k. And a ford or chev swap will be almost same weight. Look up the 99 ls1 911 for sale that is all over the Internet, yes it's a hard sell at 25k, but that is because its early on with all the reliability (cooling primarily) issues not worked out yet. If you look at it as an automotive service vs a sale and buy, I think you would better off also.

Don't do a brz. They will still only be a brz when done.

Look at it like real estate. Do you want to be the most expensive house on the block by a factor of two or four? Barely anyone in the area can afford it. Or do you want to be only 25% more but offer a few more benefits? This is where you create a market that didn't exist cause you get all the people with money who just had a catastrophic ims or overheat or ? Failure on a pcar say hmmm. 12-14pcar rebuild or 15k more hp, less weight rebuild? Or lazy guys like me go, hey it looks like a good deal, why not try. But I don't have that type of money anymore. Rich people have money and no time which is why I say do a turnkey service. Get a rollon roll off car shipping account, and get dentists cars from the ne.

My math may be a bit off, but not by much.