Coloskydiver

I need some help and advice on how to resolve an issue. I just got my car back from paint and am finally able to get out and drive it (hell yeah). I only have about 75 miles on the car and all of a sudden am having problems getting in gear, primarily 1st, & reverse (brand new WC T5 with short throw). It wasn't an issue for the first 50 miles but started to notice it getting harder and harder to get it into gear and then all of a sudden when trying to back out of the garage it would go into reveres, the gears would just grind. I was "told" that it was simple a clutch adjustment causing my problem. I got her up on jack stands and extended the rod in the slave cylinder to the clutch fork but didn't make things any better or worse. What seems to be the issue? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

MRM331

Did you fabricate any bracing for your slave cylinder and move the hole inboard on your clutch fork? Both of those improvements have mead a big differnce to many of us. Also, it's a known isue that with a T-5 you have to shift into 5th and then reverse or they will grind.

I'll post some pics of the bracing when I get a moment. If you can find my cardomain sites (there are links you can follow from my buisiness site listed below), you should be able to find pics of the ones I've mead and where I've moved the fork hole to on each of my builds.

Also, you can increase the movement of the pedal by removing the small rubber stops at each end of the pedal assembly. You can also remove the switch mounted at the top of the assembly to get another inch of movement out of it.

Good luck,
-Jason

Coloskydiver

I am using the brace provided in the Monster Miata kit. At this point I am planning on reinforcing the slave cylinder to prevent any movement. It appears that my issue is that some how the adjustment bolt is somehow spinning the nut out of adjustment or the bolt has bent. I am hoping a lock nut on the bolt will solve the majority of the problems but is a pain because I have to drop part of the exhaust to get to it and am trying to do this all on the garage floor.

MRM331

All the pushrods I got from Martin were completly threaded with a chevy rocker fulcrum on them to push on the the fork and a nylock behind it to hold it in place. The end of hte rod that points forward was squashed down in such a way so that a small (I think 1/4) wrench could be slid over it to hold it still.

Moving the hole on the fork that the rod pushes on inboard will elminate the possible bending you're seeing.

I didn't get a chance to link to the pictures I have. I'll try to do that today.

-Jason

MRM331

The following linked page on my cardomain for my last build has a few good pictures of what I'm talking about. All the mods shown that page are aimed at reducing slave cylinder flex and making the geometry of the pushrod more direct. This all equates to about 1/2 inch more movement at the throwout bearing.

Here's the page, the pictures I'm talking about are about halfway down the page:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/385516...a-mx-5/page-13

Here's some pics:








Hope that helps,
-Jason

six

I love u jason always putting up picks to help us out. I was concerned about how the wirering on this thing works but after seeing your bung hanging I feel much better so not much wirering going on off the trans. Mine has one of the wire bunches cut and was concerned of that.

MRM331

That's the neutral safety switch connection. I splice it in the harness so it's eliminated but it can always be hooked up if one wants.

-Jason

Coloskydiver

I appreciate all the input but need some further guidance. Like I have stated before I am no mechanic and am truly learning as I go. SO this is where I stand:

1. The slave cylinder is fully braced. Very similar to Jason's setup
2. The push rod is moved to the inner most hole.
3. Have ended up having to lengthen the push rod 3-4 times already but only have about 400 miles on the car.


I have asked around a bit and Martin thought that the clutch was just breaking in. ( I do have a Centerforce Dual friction clutch). He did say that for the weight of the car it was bit much but my pedal pressure feels great and works fine when adjusted.

The issue is that I will get the clutch setup just right, go put some miles on the car and then will try to start it the next day and is right back out of adjustment. I have been talking with my day and he keeps preaching to me about making sure there is free play on the throw out bearing or else I will burn out the bearing and the pressure plate. It seems like the slave cylinder does not have enough throw to leave any free play and fully disengage the clutch all in the same throw. Is this an issue and if so, what can I do? Lastly, Is it normal to have to lengthen push rod over and over in the first few hundred miles?

MRM331

The Ford throwout bearing is designed to be slightly preloaded. I usually back off the adjustment until I can wiggle the fork up and down easily and then give it one turn back to preload it.

That said, I'm experiencing some very bad clutch slipping right now so I may be full of crap on this.

I'm going with a F1Racing Dual Friction clutch when I get the trans down to address the problem. I built the car with a "Stage 2" Kevlar clutch in it and it looks like my HP overwhelmed it (only designed to go up to 360 brake horse power which is right where I most likely am). It worked fine for a two track days and about 2000 miles but then started to slip in 5th on the highway. The weird thing is it still works fine around town and even will spin the tires in first, second and third.

Do you like the dual friction clutch? I hope it's better than a traditional one but not as grabby as a puck-style.

-Jason

Coloskydiver

Jason, thank you for the input. So far the Centerforce clutch seems to work great except for the fact that it continues to come out of adjustment.

This does not seem right and am worried that something is wrong. I feel like if I was adjusting it, I should be making the rod shorter not longer. Adjusted it on Saturday and drove about 100 miles over the week end, but come Monday I couldn't get it into gear. Adjusted it again today but toward the end could feel it getting worse and am almost out of adjustment on the push rod. It looks like I might need to swap it to a longer one.

Is there a possibility that the throw out bearing has gone bad causing the shifting problems or is something bending? Where I am at now, there is no possibility of finding free play, preloading it with one turn and getting it in to gear when everything is all said and done.


What other areas could I look into?

MRM331

I had a similar thing happen, it turned out that the clutch pressure plate bolts were loosening up on me. I kept finding the preload increasing allowing the clutch to slip. I was able to get to the bolts through the fork hole in the bell to retighten them but am going to make sure to use blue locktite this time around. I'm pretty sure this had something to do with my stage 2 clutch going too early.

Funny thing is, I torqued the PP bolt as I always do (they don't take much). The only reason this may have happened that I can think of is that I used a billet steel flywheel as opposed to iron and ARP PP bolts as opposed to Ford stock.

-Jason

Coloskydiver

OMG!! I would almost bet that is the issue. It makes perfect sense because I also used a Chinese fly wheel with the ARP bolts from the clutch kit and had some issues with the bolts on the install. I have tried to visualize would could possibley causing this problem and that would make perfect sense. Looks lime it is time to drop the trans. Will probably have to wait until next week end but will keep everyone up to date with what I find.

MRM331

I hated to go Chinese but the billet steel flywheel from LMR was the only flywheel I found that had the 28oz imbalance that my Scat 331 rotating assembly required AND allowed me to use a modern 10.5 inch clutch as opposed to a puny 10 inch one. The only other alternative was a billet aluminum one for $400 or so. I couldn't pass up $98.00.

Other "Chinese Weakness" areas:

1. Possibly the F1 Racing Clutch:
Who knows where that actually came from. It may have been a fine clutch but my PP bolts backing out and then I taking it tracking pretty much killed it. Although the back of my mind says not to I'm putting in the next step of their clutch, the "dual friction" when I drop the trans to reroute my fuel lines up the tunnel. It looks identical to the "duel Friction" centerforce but only cost $200.

2. Ebay knock off of a Pro 5.0 Shifter:
I know it's wrong but I paid $35 for it and it works just as well as the Pro 5.0 one that cost $200. By far the best $35 spent on the build. Only downsides were no instruction (had to look up on line) and the bolt holes on the stick itself were not the same distance apart as they are on a factory mustang shifter. I had to modify Martin's short shifter a big to make it work.

-Jason

Coloskydiver

I should have named this thread clutch help.

I am somewhat reluctant to tear my drivetrain apart to find nothing is wrong. I know I probably sound like a broken record but I just want to be done with this and drive my car.

I have:

1. Replaced the slave (twice)
2. Braced the slave
3. changed out the push rod to a stronger/longer rod
4. Bleed the clutch over and over.
5. Change to high temp fluid
5. Installed a heat shield between the exhaust and the slave.

After all of this, My clutch seems to come out of adjustment after 30-40 miles of driving and one turn of the adjustment nut to lengthen the rod and am go to go for a few more miles.

I talked with Roger at Centerforce and he stated that all of the majority of their pressure plates have basically a stock diafram and shouldn't be a problem. He also stated that for adjustments, I should be making the rod shorter not longer.

Where do I go from here? I can't see any of the bolts through the window in the bell housing and am trying to do all of this with the while laying on the garage floor and the car on jack stand. It doesn't leave much room to work or look around. If I have to get into the bell housing to, I am going to have to pay for it to get done. The whole exhaust will need to come out to drop the trans and get the bell housing. Plus 1 or 2 of the bolt on the bell housing is really hard to get to because I didn't clearance quite enough.

Where do I go from here and what do you think is the problem?

MRM331

Shine a light in the fork hole and observe the pressure plate as someone else depresses the clutch from in the car. If you're still not sure stick a screwdriver against it while someone depresses the clutch. If the pressure plate moves backward at all while the clutch is depressed you're having the issue I had with the clutch bolts backing out. If you don't see movement rotate the rotating assembly 180 degrees and observe the other side of the clutch to make sure it's not just one side that's loose.

To tighten them I had to remove the slave and bracing and pull down the left side of my exhaust. With both removed I was able to left the fork droop down and get a socket with a universal on the end on each of the pressure plate bolts and tighten them down. Take the crank pulley off and the plugs out and spin the engine with a large breaker bar to move the rotating assembly in position to tighten each bolt. So I wouldn't get lost I also reached in with a sharpie and marked wrote the number of each clutch bolt on the pressure plate.

Your symptoms sound exactly like what was happening to me. The only way to see it is from under the car.

Don’t loose hope. Out of the four cars I’ve built only one did not have “teething” problems.

Good luck, give me a call if you like this weekend to discuss,
-Jason

267.254.6687