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Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21690)
Holy seam-sealer batman!
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21690)
Also...... damnnnnnnnnnnnnn Daniel!
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21690)
Did you do a test fit with engine/subframe, header etc before you finished up everything on the tunnel/firewall?? I know thats come back to bite some people in the ass later on. Gas pedal clearance on the drivers side, passengerside head to firewall clearance, and clearance of bellhousing bolts to trans tunnel are all important to look at.
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21690)
Otherwise great job! You are moving at a pace that makes my 26yr old self feel slow!
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1 Attachment(s)
***I found my part, so no need to contact me if you have one***
Turns out that Mazda no longer makes the dashboard duct/vent I was hoping to get a replacement for. This is part number NC1064941. Ebay has some but they're a little more than I'd like to pay. I know some on this forum have parts cars they used to build their Miatas. Here's a pic of what I need, It's the 64-94Y pictured below Attachment 8768 :thumbsup: |
I have that part pj. Pm me and we will get it sorted out
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7 Attachment(s)
Alot of things needed to happen before I could actually proceed with mounting up the engine, but I've had time in the last couple weeks to get through some of it. I need to burn some PTO for work before EOY, so I've had the last two Mondays, and will have the next few Mondays off to dedicate to the project.
I actually want to thank Imgur.com - my new picture hosting site - for providing relief when Photobucket sh1ts the bed, and also as of this morning making my newly uploaded pictures NOT appear as I type up this post... they were there an hour ago... Hard to find good help these days... You're probably thinking to yourself I have no idea what I'm doing, but no... these sites actually suck for the most part it seems. Hit another snag with these motor mounts when I went to mount up the headers. Again for whatever reason, I need to space my mounts away from the block in order to line up with the subframe. The extra 1/2" on each side directly interferes with the header, especially on the passenger side. On the driver's side it wasn't too bad, so I cut some of the heat shield away and replaced with some aluminum sheet I riveted to the shield. Clearance is still tight, but I can't make much more without denting the header (no way). https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 You don't want to see the passenger side mount, it's ugly, but you get the idea. I also applied some of the sticky backed reflective heat shield I used to make my brake line shields, directly to the motor mount itself, on the metal and poly parts. Then I have the motor mount heat shield and then the header wrap. So I think I'm going to be OK on that front. But frustrating nonetheless when you'd rather be bolting up the engine and getting on with it. Since you install the heat shields after the engine is bolted to the subframe, I had to get creative. I dropped the engine in with headers installed. Then removed the pass. side header and held it place with a bungee so it would fall down and become impossible to get back in place. That gave me room to install the heat shield. The driver's side was tight but not too bad. I left it like this until I knew the engine was staying in place. Quick link on the header bolts I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CYDLKBE https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 Installed my Ford 90 degree backup light switch. Attachment 8767 For those not aware this Ford switch has the pigtail at 90 degrees to the mounting hole so you have room in the tunnel to make the connection. Otherwise you may have to dent the tunnel and then worry about any rubbing or movement of the trans damaging the connector. Threads right in. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C5DUI2 Mounted up the trans on the transmission jack that has been floating between my garage and my Dad's for a couple decades. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 Make sure to install the vent tube on the trans before you mount it up. I had not done this, was afraid might get in the way, get snagged/torn, etc. At some point later when I went to install with the T56 installed, I found it a tight fit to reach up there. Took me a few minutes on my back, but if you have less room or less patience, you will not want to deal with this. Hydraulic slave cylinder installed. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 Got my adapter parts from Speedway Motors: LS1 & LT1 T56 Clutch Line AN3 Banjo Bolt Kit 5151398 $24.99 LS1 & LT1 T56 Release Bearing to AN3 Line Fitting 5151396 $13.99 36 Inch Braided S.S. Brake Line - Straight AN3 91031846-3 $12.99 Poly trans mount installed - the rounded part faces the rear - and the "preload" plate is required https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478007720 |
5 Attachment(s)
Applied some of the Heat and Sound suppressor to the tunnel area. I had 3 boxes of this, I used a whole box for the tunnel and the firewall where the engine is close to it.
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478011292 I used my Porter Cable heat gun to get the pieces warm so they could be handled easily. Then I used my J-roller to bed it into the tunnel, with some extra heat from the gun to make it adhere. Temps were in the mid 50s this day, so it needed the help. Used another box of the mat to get some down on the interior floor so I could mount the frame rails through the mat. So the trans mounting... first I had to raise up the car a few inches so the trans on top of the jack would slide underneath. Since I had no rear subframe installed, this was a bit tricky. I was able to use some 2x4 bracing where the rear subframe normally mounts to lift it up higher. Luckily I was just able to sneak the trans under the car and into place. Once I had it in place I took a look at the mounting surface of the bellhousing (attached to the engine) and the trans mounting surface, and tried to get them as parallel as possible by jacking up the engine. I also had to jack up the trans slowly b/c there is a clearance issue with the emergency brake bumpout on the Miata. So jack it up until the input shaft clears the bottom of the bell, then move it closer to the engine. Then up a bit more until the shaft clears the fingers on the clutch pressure plate, then in some more. Then once the shaft is near the mounting hole start to slide it in. Recheck if the trans and bell are still parallel. Hello, this is me from the future... if you have issues mounting it up , make sure you check your slave cylinder to pressure plate clearance. The slave cylinder should not be contacting the clutch during the install. If it is, then check my post on addressing this (https://www.v8miata.net/general-moto...ge8/). Back to the current space in time.... I had some difficulty at first getting it to move into place the final inch or so. My suggestion would be to NOT force it in. Don't hammer at it. I saw similar issues from people on LS1Tech. I thought it was the spring on the slave cylinder at first on mine. I left the trans on the jack overnight and thought this over. The next day I picked up some longer bolts in a 10mm x 1.5 and cut the heads off to make them into studs. I threaded the studs into the bell housing and installed the trans again getting the studs lined up into the mounting holes.You can see them threaded into the bell. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478011292 So far so good. Initially things were not mating up as closely as before. This time I tried to lower the engine a hair and magically with one push it clunked right in. I only had about 1/4" where I couldn't get it to fully slide in but I knew I was close. I used a bolt on the studs to pull it tight slowly, then threaded in the other install bolts to slowly tighten things up. Final torque at 37 ft. lbs. and I was good to go. Finished the day by installing the trans cross member and then the frame rails so they lined up with the cross member. This part of the job flew by so that by end of a productive day I had a full installed trans and I could take a break from working on my back under the car. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478011292 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478011292 Pic of the interior sound/heat mat installed and frame rail bolts https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478011292 Going to work on the clutch master install next, bolt up the loose header, and test fit the radiator with the Flyin Miata Stage 2 fan shroud and fans. I'm loving the extra space on the garage floor now so may start to fab up the rear diff setup as well. Also might have a buyer for the Miata engine/trans... let's hope! |
7 Attachment(s)
Installed a new Miata coolant sensor which conveniently threads right into the same port as the LS1 sensor. Here are the two side by side. I've been told (thanks wcw5023) you will still need to run the LS1 sensor for the PCM to be happy, but the Miata sensor will feed your dash gauge for the correct temp. There is another water temp port at the back of the passenger side head.
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Clutch master cylinder adapter plate fitted up and held in place so I can mark the holes for the MC itself and the bolt holes. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Marked from the back. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Final install https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Worked on getting the new rear hubs and wheel bearings installed. I bought the driveshafts and hubs from Driveshaft Shop, though actually through an online vendor that was about $100 less than DSS themselves, or other vendors I found. Woot. DriveShaft MZFD25 600HP Axle/Hub Kit 89-05 Mazda Miata W/8.8 Rear Conversion Yeah, that price stung a bit, but they are the 600hp version, so should be a set it and forget it affair. Hubs and lug bolts included. This is how I broke the spindles down. First tried with a slide hammer, but after awhile I realized that was going to be pointless. I'm not reusing these, so don't care how hard I beat on them. So the pic shows my drilling hammer hitting an appropriately sized impact socket. I hold the socket with a vise grip against the hub and wail away at it until it pops out. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Next you need to remove the large circlip or that bearing isn't going anywhere. Right angle needle nose pliers worked fine for me. Then use another appropriately sized socket to pound out the bearing by trying to make contact with the outer race of the bearing. This socket is huge and came in a reasonably priced kit from Harbor Freight. They have 1" drive sizes which I don't even have a wrench for, but they are great for stuff like this. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 You may find it helpful to use your vice and gravity https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478639958 Once they're out, clean up the bore on the spindle and check for any damage. Save the old bearings b/c you can use them as install tools in the next step. |
Nice progress! Feels good to get a handful of these little projects out of the way doesnt it?
Did you remove the LS1 coolant sensor entirely? The PCM will still need to read from it, so typically most put the miata sensor into the plugged off port on the rear of the passenger side head. |
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Before you start with the new hubs and bearings, it may help to freeze them overnight to shrink them a bit and help with fitting large pieces of metal into slightly larger holes.
Bury the hubs and bearings underneath the steak and chicken so your vegetarian wife will never notice. :x: I used a socket long enough to "catch" the lub bolt and pressed in like so https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478641243 That is until your vice surrenders with a dull sounding crack https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478641243 No big deal, that's what a BFH is for. Just make sure you seat the lug bolt head all the way and make sure the threaded part is 90 degrees to the hub face when done and you should be good. This was the easy part. Use the old bearing (on top) to tap the new bearing into the spindle. I put some light moly grease on the spindle bore. I suppose you could also heat up the spindle with a torch or oven, that might really make it easy. I used a hose clamp to keep them perfectly aligned. If you don't you could nick the new bearing race making it harder to slide into place, or worse damage the rubber seal. Don't fuck this up. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478641243 A block of wood on top of the old bearing will help tap it evenly but hard metal to metal contact is really what it needs to drive it in. I periodically checked the inner race to see if it spun normally. If it's going in straight you should have no problems. Once it's a 1/2" in, it should keep itself lined up. Once it's in, I just reused the original circlip after a bit of wire wheeling to clean it up. No pics of the last steps, but basically you are then doing the same thing with the hub into the bearing. The IMPORTANT thing to do here is to support the inner bearing race from below as you tap in the hub from above. If you don't, the pressure from hub slipping into the bearing will be put on the bearings themselves. This will probably not give you great life out of the bearings. Again, keep spinning the hub and bearing to ensure there is no resistance as you tap it in. Final install of hub https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478641243 Don't forget to include the dust seal https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478641243 Here are the parts I used https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BZ5144 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001542MG0 |
7 Attachment(s)
Started some work on the rear Ford 8.8" diff mount
I've been using this blog post as a guide, it's excellent: MiataV8 Conversion: Rear subframe I created a centerline on the subframe by using the control arm mounting holes. Clamped a metal ruler in place, did some math and used a framing square to mark it off. White paint pens be the bomb. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 There is enough play in the CV joint that the centerline doesn't need to be exact. But the axles are equal length so you need to leave the same amount of room on either side of the diff for the axle. The pinion mount on the diff (where the driveshaft connects) is not on the centerline of the diff, so be aware of that. Marked centerline in front and back of subframe https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 Then I marked a centerline on the diff by using the metal face of the axle holes and some metal straight edges/rulers. I think it was about 11.5" from face to face. Turns out the centerline is right near the rear mounting point on this diff. The diff is out of a 99 Ford Cobra Mustang with the Traction Lok LSD. All aluminum case with some ribbing for strength and the front and back mount points. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 With this basic info I laid the diff in place on the subframe and lined up the centerlines on the diff and mount to get some rough ideas. Then I used some measurements I took from the original Miata diff to determine where the axles would fall, front to back, as they connect to the wheels. Turns out the axle centerline is pretty much in the middle of the subframe. Attachment 8766 Once I lined those up I had a good idea of where it would sit in the subframe. The only detail would be how high or low it would sit and what the pinion angle would be. This can be adjusted with spacers or washers on either end of the diff once the mounts are created, but my rough measurements think the diff is pretty close to where it needs to be - in relation to the front of the engine. The angle of the trans output should be the same or very close (few degrees) to the diff's pinion flange angle. Once I knew this I created some mounts for the rear of the diff https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 Worked on a strong/thick brace plate that will weld to the subframe where the rear of the diff will mount to. The holes in the subframe are to make room for long 10.9 grade bolt heads that will point up to received the diff mount. This might make more sense once it's all fitted together. I also plan to gusset the L-shaped mounts for strength. And also seam weld the entire subframe, then wire wheel it and POR15 it. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1478643923 |
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21784)
Nice progress! Feels good to get a handful of these little projects out of the way doesnt it?
Did you remove the LS1 coolant sensor entirely? The PCM will still need to read from it, so typically most put the miata sensor into the plugged off port on the rear of the passenger side head. Hmm, I didn't know that about the temp sensor. Just got the PCM back from being modded but haven't looked into that kind of stuff yet. So the PCM still needs the LS1 sensor signal, but the Miata sensor will feed the water temp gauge... makes sense. Thanks!! |
Thanks for the info on the axles. I wonder if anyone has used the 900 hp version and are they worth the extra money. I am looking at 600hp at the flywheel. It is always about the trade off between money and piece of mind. I intend to use the coilovers from V8 Roadsters and do not know if there will be interference issues?
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Originally Posted by Flavaquero
(Post 21788)
Thanks for the info on the axles. I wonder if anyone has used the 900 hp version and are they worth the extra money. I am looking at 600hp at the flywheel. It is always about the trade off between money and piece of mind. I intend to use the coilovers from V8 Roadsters and do not know if there will be interference issues?
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PJ - You're making some great progress! Great detail on rear hub work. I now know where to come to if and when I need to revisit my rear axles in the future!
You also have a pretty unique M3/4/5... Like those as well. |
Originally Posted by ToySnakePMC
(Post 21800)
PJ - You're making some great progress! Great detail on rear hub work. I now know where to come to if and when I need to revisit my rear axles in the future!
You also have a pretty unique M3/4/5... Like those as well. The M3 is one of my favorite cars. It's a great example in very nice shape for almost 160k miles, and with any luck will increase in value during my ownership. Though I think it's jealous of all the time I'm spending on the Miata - lol. |
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Picking up where I left off on the subframe work. After getting the large bolts tacked to the plate in the right place for the diff brackets, I welded the large plate to the subframe. Now I can drop in the diff and bolt it (nut it?) down.
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 Before that I did some seam welding of the rear subframe where there are pinch welds along the length of the two "beams" which will be carrying alot of the torque load as the diff wants to twist under power. All of the other connections in the subframe appear to be fully welded https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 I will be wire wheeling the whole subframe and doing POR 15 on the whole thing once all the welding and fabrication are done. Big moment seeing the pumpkin up in there. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 Some shots of the fitment. Looks like I nailed the clearance on the underside of the car. This is with no mounts on the front of the diff yet so I can move the front of the diff up and down to get my pinion angle and clearances right. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479071505 There is plenty of information regarding pinion angle such as Pinion Angle - Wolfe Race Craft. Sites like this and other info all seem to recommend keeping it under 3 degrees. You can take the measurement of the front of the engine on the flats of the crank damper, or at the rear of the trans housing where the output shaft is. I would recommend the the furthest rear point b/c I saw a difference of about 1-2 degrees between the damper and rear of the trans. I seem to have a downward angle at the trans of 1 degree, and 3 degrees upward at the diff, so I should be in a safe zone right now with my rough setup. At this point I took some measurements for my driveshaft which I will order on Monday from DriveShaft Shop. I want to make sure the driveshaft to Diff adapter won't have any clearance issues with the underside of the fuel tank where there is a bumpout. Anyone have other suggestions on custom driveshaft options they've used? |
4 Attachment(s)
Started some work on the fuel system by installing the upgraded Deatschworks DW200 pump. No pics of the pump installed, but this is it
Install was pretty straight forwrard, it includes everything you need for install into the Miata. One thing I was unsure about was how to make the wiring harness connection. Where I splice the new pump wiring harness into the old wiring, I wasn't sure if I should use any heat shrink tubing or anything non-metal for fear the rubber or insulation might not be made for contact with fuel and degrades and ends up as junk in your fuel tank. The instructions with the pump quickly glossed over this so I made a phone call to them, which has not been returned yet. I made the connections with bare metal butt connectors (insulation removed) and staggered them so they won't make contact with each other once they are bundled back together. Since there other connectors in the tank that are exposed to fuel without insulation, I feel confident this will be fine. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073224 This is the rubber covering that goes back over the wires to keep them together and from chafing on any of the other parts. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073224 Since I'll be adding the Corvette fuel filter/regulator combo everyone else uses, we don't need to regulating fuel pressure in the tank. I think I read this somewhere, but may need to double check my research. One concern is what do with the disconnected line that removes about 6" of the return line. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073224 The fuel will make its way back to the tank, but my guess is that you want the return to end near the bottom of the tank - maybe to prevent extra fuel sloshing? I double checked the Flyin Miata swap instructions, and they do not seem to make any concern about removing the fuel regulator hole open: "On NBs only, remove the FPR on the fuel pump assembly (4) and leave the resulting hole open." Put the assembly back in the tank and attached the blue fuel adapter fittings you see to make them into a -6 AN connection. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073224 Going to pick up some 45 degree hose ends to work around the other stuff on top of the fuel tank you see. |
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Finished up the power steering pump bracket. I just hit it with some matching red spray paint the day before and bolted it up. It's not the prettiest thing but seems to very solidly mount the pump where I need it.
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073872 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073872 Also made a rear alternator bracket https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479073872 |
I did not see any bushings between your diff mounts and the frame. Are you not concerned about the noise or vibration?
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Originally Posted by Flavaquero
(Post 21805)
I did not see any bushings between your diff mounts and the frame. Are you not concerned about the noise or vibration?
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Nice Progress! I'm nearly at the same point but I need clutch stuff to get the engine and transmission together to install into the car.
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Just a thought on the rear. If you're using the same bushings on the rear bracket as those used on the front, did you adjust the length of the steel bushing that runs through the rubber bushings? The bushing assembly is designed for the front casting ears that are approximately 1/2" and needs to be shortened if you're not using 1/2" plate.
Looks good, Mike |
Originally Posted by cvx_20
(Post 21814)
Just a thought on the rear. If you're using the same bushings on the rear bracket as those used on the front, did you adjust the length of the steel bushing that runs through the rubber bushings? The bushing assembly is designed for the front casting ears that are approximately 1/2" and needs to be shortened if you're not using 1/2" plate.
Looks good, Mike |
Ordered my aluminum driveshaft from Drive Shaft Shop, may be 1-2 weeks for delivery. Once it's fitted I can fine tune the pinion angle and complete the front mounts on the diff.
Realized that I have a V8 Roadsters subframe with the brackets for a NA Miata steering rack, not an NB. If you've compared them before, the passenger side rack mount has a divot for the rubber bushing on the NB, and the bolt holes don't line up. After a bit of cursing I cut off the driver's side mount and will be DIYing a mount but need to spend some time getting it in the right position so the rack is where it should be before welding it in. Wish this was something I'd checked on while I had the subframe on the ground :pissed: Needed to walk away from that one for awhile. |
What a magnificent build thread! Thank you so much for such great documentation of your build!
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Originally Posted by charchri4
(Post 21828)
What a magnificent build thread! Thank you so much for such great documentation of your build!
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I have a tracking number on my driveshaft, and some fuel system parts I need.
Other than that I won't be making much progress over the next few days as I'm having some lower back pain that will keep me out of the garage for a few days. Great time to take a breather and enjoy the upcoming holiday week. Weather is dipping down into the 40s lately making it a bit harder to get into the garage. Some updates from the last week Started picking apart the LS1 harness. I've ID'd all of the connectors, have a good idea of what I need to remove, I have the reflashed PCM, so I'm in a good spot here. I'll post some links and info on the wiring stuff as I wrap my head around it some more https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 To solve my steering rack mount issue (I found out I have an NA subframe mount, not NB) it occurred to me to give V8 Roadsters a call for the brackets I need. They hooked me up. While browsing their site I also pulled the trigger on their cross braces once I realized how light they are (3 pound for both) and how much work it might be making my own (my original plan). I also ordered up some poly rack bushings from Energy Suspension https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 Decided to clean up the rusty/flaky coil pack brackets. Hit it with the wire wheel and then brushed on some rust preventer stuff I had laying around. Rusty on the right, wire wheeled on the left. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 Repainted https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 In an effort to try to heat shield the intake using a product I saw being sold online (for way more than I'd pay) I tried this https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 My VDO oil pressure sender with warning light function that I had been using on the Miata engine was installed, but it was a VERY tight fit. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 Not comfortable with this, so I used my die grander to remove a bit of plastic, just enough to give an 1/8" of clearance. Not sure how much material is there, so play it safe https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 Sneak peek of the engine in the process of getting dressed. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479850871 I had also repainted the fuel rail since it was also showing some wear. I had the fuel injectors cleaned and balanced by Marren Fuel Injection (www.injector.com) back in April after I picked up the motor. |
6 Attachment(s)
While I wait for the driveshaft, I decided to give the Ford 8.8" diff a once over. It was missing a diff cover bolt, and it looked like the cover was sealed with silicone caulk, which the Ford rebuild instructions specifically say not to use...
Opened up the diff to have a look https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 Cut a slit down one of the old bolts to make my own thread chaser as some silicone (mix of black, probably RTV, and clear silicone was in the bolt holes) to clean it up https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 Thought I'd give one of these LubeLocker gaskets a try. Reviews seemed to be good on them https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008RAFJ38 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 New OEM bolts https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 Cleaned up the cover real nice. comes with a magnetic fill plug, had some shavings on it... https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 Also replaced the axle seals, you won't know these are leaky until everything is installed and you take it for a drive. Cheap insurance. The prices that Rock Auto had on this were WAY cheaper than I was seeing elsewhere. $6 each for Timken seals, plus a few bucks for shipping. 1999 FORD MUSTANG 4.6L V8 DOHC Axle Shaft Seal | RockAuto https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479851811 Also picked up a new VBelt - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C2WKRM New engine coolant sensor - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001W0FSMM |
3 Attachment(s)
Shout out to my new vice. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001LQY3U
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479852130 Also to these dust masks I bought a pack of at Home Depot. The filtration is better, and they are much more comfortable - noticably so. You are using a dust mask when cutting/grinding metal right? https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479852130 Big middle finger to the MSA brand, the stupid head bands snap after a few uses making them completely junk, and they aren't very comfortable grabbing at the hair on your head. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1479852130 |
Nice progress. FYI Ford has never used a gasket to seal the differential covers on anything that they have produced since the Ford 9inch. They ALL seal with RTV, mostly black, but the best being the grey diesel sealant.
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Originally Posted by tbone heller
(Post 21847)
Nice progress. FYI Ford has never used a gasket to seal the differential covers on anything that they have produced since the Ford 9inch. They ALL seal with RTV, mostly black, but the best being the grey diesel sealant.
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7 Attachment(s)
On with the build. Got the fuel system done. I will share some tips on how I like to do AN fittings.
I used the following fittings/hose from Racer Parts Wholesale. You could find the same stuff on Amazon I think but RPW was a good bit cheaper AER-FBA0600-10 -6 Aeroquip Stainless Steel Braided Hose - -6 Aeroquip Stainless Steel Braided Hose, 10' section AER-FCM4432 Aeroquip 90 Degree Reusable Elbow Fitting- Black Anodized - -06 Aeroquip 90 Degree Reusable Elbow Fitting- Black AER-FCM4412 Aeroquip Straight Reusable Swivel Fitting- Black Anodized - -06 Aeroquip Straight Reusable Swivel Fitting- Black I clamp up the hose in some neat vice jaw holder that attach magnetically to the vice - not sure where I got them, but they have soft plastic jaws and they were handy in this case since they have a little slot for holding hose I wrap the hose in electrical tape with a few tight wraps around. Then I use a metal cutting blade on my grinder, a thin one if possible, and make a cut around the hose. I try not to just cut the hose in one pass, but make about 4 cuts into the hose at around 90 degrees to each other. This prevents the braided material from fraying too much based on the way the blade cuts through it. Hope that makes sense. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 I use a small screwdriver to push in the frayed bits as I slide the hose end over. Just take your time and work around in a circular pattern. If you don't, the frayed ends will get more difficult to deal with and you may need to recut for a clean start. Seat the end down as far as it will go. Then I use a small screwdriver again to push in hose from the inside to get under the inside lip of the hose end. This will just make it easier to screw in the other piece of the hose end. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 At this point I try to use an air gun to blow out some of the junk that will get caught in the threads, or possibly in the hose itself. I use this lube on the threads and on the part that slides into the hose itself. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 I also put a piece of tape on the hose where the bottom of the hose end stops. This let's me know if the hose end is pulling up as I tighten down the connection. If you use lube it's not usually a problem, but if you don't the friction of the connection can pull up the hose end away from the hose, and you won't have a good seal. Again, hope that makes sense. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 Once all done, I took the hose into my basement utility sink and ran some hot water through it to flush out any debris. Used a small bottle brush for garage stuff and worked it into the hose where the new fitting is to clean out any junk. With one end done, I connect it to my fuel filter/reg and then bring it back up to the engine keeping it tight to the inside of the frame rails, and mark where my next cut will be. My filter/reg mounted. A few tips on this, I thought it would be a bit easier to route the hose up to the top of the tank, but I ended dropping my already empty tank - it wasn't too hard at all. Just be aware of some connections near the back of the tank that might get caught up. You just need to drop it enough to see where you are doing with the hose and get the length right. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 Final connection with the fuel rail https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 Covered the fuel hose near the engine with some more heat wrap. Found a convenient stud on the firewall to use a padded clamp to hold the hose in place https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481208334 |
17 Attachment(s)
My new driveshaft, went all out and got the aluminum one
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Some of the details on it, it's a nice piece, feels light, but I forget the weight difference between it and the steel one https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Subframe all welded up, POR15d and painted with gloss black. Turned out pretty nice https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Rear diff mount L-brackets https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Connection to the T56 trans. If you measured correctly you should have about 3/4" to 1" of spacing between the lip of the T56 seal and where the slip yoke get thicker https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Mounted up the diff on the subframe on the ground, and laid it on the trans jack. Once bolted into the car (90 ft lbs on the studs, 60 ft lbs on the bolt) I measured the pinion angle. I built slots into the rear L-brackets so I could tilt the diff to get the pinion angle just right. The pinion angle on the diff was almost exactly 90 degrees as I had planned it ;-) https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Used the 12mm 12 point bolts recommended. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 Since the angle on the T56 output was 1.5 degrees I should end up within the recommended pinion angle range of 3 degrees. The important thing is that the two angles are measure with the parts facing "down". As power is applied to the driveline it will tend to want to swing up and become more straight, or closer to 0 degrees. Pinion Angle - Wolfe Race Craft https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481209919 I had to clearance the aluminum heat shield under the gas tank a bit as it was less than an inch from the spinning driveshaft. Since the diff mounts are poly mounts, there shouldn't be much movement anyway. |
If you find yourself with some free time over the holidays, you should check out the build series for "Project Binky". It's an epic build, and has some nice humor as well.
It's also where I picked up the idea for this digital angle gauge which has been very helpful so far https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NPJGL0 |
PJ,
looks like you are making some crazy fast progress! I just have a couple of concerns. First, are you not concerned about the diff being able to move around since you put slots in it? Do you plan to fix its location somehow once you get it set? Without some math in reference to the torque about the axle moment and bolt clamp loads, Id be concerned with that. Second, Not sure if im just reading this wrong, but it appears to me that you have the rear pinion angle DOWN, which would be incorrect. unless your tail-shaft of the trans is pointed up! lol. Drawing a center-line through the engine crankshaft through the output shaft, and a center-line through the diff pinion, these center-lines should be parallel to each other. |
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21941)
PJ,
looks like you are making some crazy fast progress! I just have a couple of concerns. First, are you not concerned about the diff being able to move around since you put slots in it? Do you plan to fix its location somehow once you get it set? Without some math in reference to the torque about the axle moment and bolt clamp loads, Id be concerned with that. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1481228247
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21941)
Second, Not sure if im just reading this wrong, but it appears to me that you have the rear pinion angle DOWN, which would be incorrect. unless your tail-shaft of the trans is pointed up! lol.
Drawing a center-line through the engine crankshaft through the output shaft, and a center-line through the diff pinion, these center-lines should be parallel to each other. Solid mounted drivelines would have less angle built in, b/c they will move less. Poly is next, then rubber would have the most angle built in. Under power the axles will twist moving the car forward and the diff will rotate upwards (countering the rotation of the axles). A 3 degree down angle will become zero or close to it, and the output angle of the trans and input angle of the diff should be parallel (in theory - b/c we can't actually measure the angle under power). So my trans is 87.5 degrees down, and my diff is 90 degrees. That's a 2.5 degree down angle which is pretty ideal I think. One other point is that when I measure the output angle at the front of the engine (crank damper) and the rear of the trans (the flat where the output seal is), I get measurements that were one degree different. Not sure if that's concerning since there could be small differences in machining, etc. but I went with the rear of the trans measurement since it was closer to where the driveshaft mounted. I guess only time will tell once I get this on the road and do some driving, whether there will be any vibrations. the good thing is that with all the poly mounts I'm using hopefully the measurements I take will not change much during driving, vs. old rubber bushings on a lifted leaf spring rear, etc. etc. which is probably a much more difficult scenario to get right. Please do provide any thoughts on whether this sounds right. I'm relatively new to rear wheel drive stuff so I've not spent much thinking about this problem at all, only going off what I've read. |
PJ,
I would agree, we are on the same page as far as the concept goes. However there is so much information out there about driveline angles, you have to be careful because there is not one rule that applies to all applications. Many hardcore hotrodders and drag racers might tell you to put some degree of pinion down angle for the reasons you stated above. However their only concerns are wide open throttle down a straight line, in a car with a live axle ; that doesnt get driven on a street. For our application, I would highly recommend setting angle at pinion up. On an IRS car, the differential will move very little, if at all under normal conditions. Consider this, your driving along at highway speeds, just taking you newly finished V8 miata on a scenic trip. Your diff isnt loaded, your diff is pinion down, trans centerline down. This is no bueno. Even still, under wide open, hard launching on slicks, I would bet there is not nearly 2°+ degrees change in angle or whatever it is you need. And even if there was, just consider where you car will be spending the majority of its time. Be my guest to just run it as you have it and see what happens! It wont be the end of the world, and maybe you will prove me wrong! Shouldnt be too much of a hassle to fix down the road if you need to. Just my two cents! I am certainly no expert, so I would welcome someone else to come in and put me in my place if I am wrong! haha |
I figured I would shim my rear L-brackets to achieve the adjustment instead of slots. There has been some forum stuff on rear end clunking which was attributed to the use on non-knurled bolts going through the Ford diff cover. Just my 2 cents.
|
Originally Posted by Flavaquero
(Post 21944)
I figured I would shim my rear L-brackets to achieve the adjustment instead of slots. There has been some forum stuff on rear end clunking which was attributed to the use on non-knurled bolts going through the Ford diff cover. Just my 2 cents.
|
Originally Posted by wcw5023
(Post 21943)
PJ,
I would agree, we are on the same page as far as the concept goes. However there is so much information out there about driveline angles, you have to be careful because there is not one rule that applies to all applications. Many hardcore hotrodders and drag racers might tell you to put some degree of pinion down angle for the reasons you stated above. However their only concerns are wide open throttle down a straight line, in a car with a live axle ; that doesnt get driven on a street. For our application, I would highly recommend setting angle at pinion up. On an IRS car, the differential will move very little, if at all under normal conditions. Consider this, your driving along at highway speeds, just taking you newly finished V8 miata on a scenic trip. Your diff isnt loaded, your diff is pinion down, trans centerline down. This is no bueno. Even still, under wide open, hard launching on slicks, I would bet there is not nearly 2°+ degrees change in angle or whatever it is you need. And even if there was, just consider where you car will be spending the majority of its time. Be my guest to just run it as you have it and see what happens! It wont be the end of the world, and maybe you will prove me wrong! Shouldnt be too much of a hassle to fix down the road if you need to. Just my two cents! I am certainly no expert, so I would welcome someone else to come in and put me in my place if I am wrong! haha The poly bushings are definitely stiff, so hard to imagine alot of movement happening, but I'll bet a gopro under the car or some other measuring device would tell us pretty quickly. Oh wait, youtube! Ford Cobra IRS diff - like mine: |
I would suggest one of these cover braces: Steeda IRS Mustang Differential Cover Brace 555-8118 (99-04 Cobra) - Free Shipping. I have replaced dozens of broken stock Cobra covers over the years. They just can't handle the abuse.
|
Now I am confused. The pic of your cover is different than mine. Mine has a rectangular block coming off the back where two bolts go through to attach to the L brackets that I made. I can shim either these brackets or the nose to adjust the angle. Does anyone else see the need for the cover brace with this setup?
|
Originally Posted by Flavaquero
(Post 21957)
Now I am confused. The pic of your cover is different than mine. Mine has a rectangular block coming off the back where two bolts go through to attach to the L brackets that I made. I can shim either these brackets or the nose to adjust the angle. Does anyone else see the need for the cover brace with this setup?
My thoughts are that rubber bushings will probably allow alot more twisting of the diff. So when you are heavily in and out of power that diff will flopping back and forth alot, creating alot of stress on the relatively weak aluminum cover. That and hard launches, grippy tires or any wheel hop will probably also spell certain death for any stress points. |
5 Attachment(s)
Can't believe it's been a month since I posted, but nevertheless I've been chipping away at the project over the holidays. Alot of things are starting to come together. I've been able to complete alot of the welding tasks in the engine bay, which now allows me to move onto more delicate tasks like wiring and routing hoses of various kinds.
One thing I'm glad to have behind me is the power steering rack issue. I had to re-fabricate the initial bracket I had welded in due to clearance issues with the steering column U-joint. One begins to realize just how tight all the components are in this area. Since most will not have the issues I had with rack mounting, I won't go into detail and will move onto getting hydraulic power to the rack. The only options I could find for power steering fittings are straight and 90 degree fittings, so this is what I did. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483498294 A 120 degree fitting would have allowed me to point the line down and route through the rack and make it look a bit neater. But this will work just fine. Up and over the reservoir. A conveniently located padded hose clamp will keep it from rubbing against anything. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483498294 This is the fitting to use for the high pressure side. Not exactly designed for this application as the OEM fitting is a banjo fitting, but the thread size matches and others have used it with success. Just tightened it down snug. I'll keep an eye out for leaks. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483498294 I reused the oem return line fitting and made some gentle bends so it points where I want it. Since I'm using a power steering cooler, that direction would be toward the radiator - the hose you see coming toward you in the pic. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483498294 I used a Derale power steering cooler kit from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006HNM66 and mounted it in front of the radiator using some zip ties. The plastic connectors that came with the kit worked well, but quickly broke as I was moving the cooler around to connect the hoses. I would suggest removing the radiator, installing the cooler and the hoses to it with plenty of room, then reinstall the rad so you can cut the hoses to length at the rack and reservoir without having to fiddle with them in a tight space. Some additional hose in the right size gave me enough to make all the connections https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IYZLPM https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483498294 |
2 Attachment(s)
For the radiator I realized some custom mounts were in order to make room at the front of the engine. Nothing complicated, but one challenge was getting the radiator to float in mid air will I figured out where the mounts needed to go.
I was shooting for the bottom of the radiator cooling fins to line up with the bottom of the radiator opening on the NB Miata. This also puts the top of the radiator about level with the radiator support cross member. I did have to cut away the cross member a bit. No good shots of the cuts I made, but you see the driver's side here, maybe about 2". You could probably remove more, but I realized that if you want the radiator to be mostly plumb this is as far as you can go with the rad hitting the gussets holding the frame rails to the structure behind the bumper. I'd rather not cut away these gussets b/c they probably help with strength at the front of the car. So you could tilt the radiator a bit but this worked for me. You can also see I was able to reuse the oem mounts which I was happy about. I cut away the mount where it bolts to the body so it cleared other stuff. I was able to reuse the oem bolt holes too. I just bent the mount in a vice ever so slightly until I had it where I wanted it. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483499720 No pics of the custom lower mounts for some reason but if you can imagine some 1" wide steel strap, 1/8" thick with an L-bend at the bottom to catch the rubber mounting bumps on the bottom of the radiator. My suggestion would be to do the upper mounts first, and use something from the bottom to push up the rad into place on the upper mounts. The fit the lower mounts to the rad, and mark where you want to weld them or bolt them to the body. Then remove the rad and tack them in. Once tacked you can bend and twist them for the right fit and then weld them in permanently. Hit them with some spray paint before you mount everything up the final time. Here's a shot of the clearance I have with the mounts finalized (I think) but it should be close. (We'll talk about the swaybar next). I'm using the Flyin Miata dual Spal fan and shroud setup. I think they are the Medium size fans - can't recall. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483499720 |
7 Attachment(s)
It was obvious the stock Miata swaybar will not clear the engine, so you can do a few things. Flyin Miata sells a bar that clears stuff, or you can make extensions to the swaybar mounts to move the bar lower. I bought the car with a pretty thick Racing Beat bar, over an inch thick. The car handles pretty flat which could be the bar doing it's job, so I was hesitant to give it up (I am keeping the bar, not selling yet). I also read that some people may have issues with swaybar mount extensions twisting or breaking unless they are made very beefy. Since this bar was stiff I was concerned that would be an issue. A broken swaybar mount in mid turn would be eventful.
I read on a post here https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=404786 that you can use an E36 BMW M3 bar with success, because it has a bump on the middle of the bar that clears the engine perfectly. The width from link to link also lines up with the Miata. Pretty cool I thought. If it worked, I could also upgrade to one of the many E36 BMW front swaybar options out there if I wanted something stiffer. And then it hit me... literally... as I walked out of the garage. I have an E36 M3! While I did a coolant flush and brake line bleed on the BMW one day, I pulled the front bar out and had a look. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 Long story short, hell yeah it will fit https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 The stock links I was using are a bit long and out of plumb so figured I'd have to move the rack mounts back a bit to fix that. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 Since I knew this would work I did a quick search on ebay and found a BMW used parts seller about 20 mins from me selling an M3 bar in good shape for a good price. I picked it up the next day and wire wheeled the rust off of it, and gave it a nice coat of paint. In the meantime I picked up some adjustable sway bar links from SuperMiata - SuperMiata End Links. They have a nice video that goes over the features of the links and the price seemed right. I also picked up some poly swaybar bushings since the OEM BMW mounts are rubber. Energy Suspension luckily sells a variety of bushings for different diamater bars. energysuspension.com | Sway Bar & End Link Bushings The BMW bar is something like 23mm, so I bought the correct bushing to match (can't recall which one). The bushing mounting bracket bolt spacing it a bit wider than the Miata bracket, so I welded on some extensions to the Miata brackets which bolt onto the frame rails. Welded some captive nuts at the right spacing. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 Did some rough mounting on the car. You can see where the Miata bracket front mounting bolt lines up with the rear bolt hole on the frame rail. This turned out to work fine for moving the mount back enough for the end links to be happy. Once I was happy I welded them in and gave them a good coat of paint. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 As they say, Happy endlinks, Happy life https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483501490 That about completes some of the fabrication stuff needed in the engine bay. With everything in place and painted, I was able to move onto other tasks. |
5 Attachment(s)
As I was getting the rad mounted I was planning my attack on routing the hoses. I took measurements of the hose flange sizes on the GM water pump and Miata radiator I had and some approx. measurements of how much hose I needed and bends.
Using some info from these forums I figured both upper and lower rad hoses would need to be spliced together so I found these on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018FY0Z84 You'll also need these little 1/8" NPT plugs in case you don't use the ports for anything else https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CIM3GO Because even little plugs can't be easy, I found out the threads were a little rough. After almost stripping one and ruining a plug, I picked up a cheap ebay NPT tap and cleaned them out. You can see the amount of trash the threads have. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483502626 Turns out Jegs.com has good info on a bunch of hoses, including pictures, diameters of the hose ends, length, etc. For the upper hose I picked up a Gates 22029 hose https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C2SAVC which was detailed here by Jegs http://www.jegs.com/i/Gates/465/22029/10002/-1 https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483502626 This would just get shortened in the middle to the right size (depending on your application) and the hose coupling would do the rest. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483502626 A Gates 22373 hose would get me most of the way for the lower rad hose. I actually bought two of these since I figured all the bends on this one would get me the length I needed. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C2WDFQ https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483502626 I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out. Hose clamps were added later. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483502626 I'll go over the heater hose connections once I have the engine harness in. But I can say now the heater hookup may work out even better then the rad hoses for the OEM look and feel. |
5 Attachment(s)
In the meantime I also did some custom work on the shifter to make my Golf ball shift knob work. This rubber golf ball shift knob has been on 3 different cars over probably 15 years, from my 98 Golf VR6, to my 85 Golf to the Miata. I made a custom adapter for the oem Miata shifter and figured I'd do the same for the T56 shifter.
https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483503485 I also expanded my ever growing collection of random size tap and dies https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483503485 Installed the V8 Roadsters chassis side brace as well. Instructions were a bit sparse on these, but it was easy to figure out. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483503485 Clutch line is routed and installed, with another conveniently placed bolt hole to keep the lines in place up against the firewall https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483503485 I've started working on the wiring as well. Getting the under car harness routed back up to the engine bay. I just ran the harness tight with the fuel and brake lines. As it peeks out in the wheel well there are two wires you can connect to the T56 reverse light switch. The bottom wires are the T56 switch connector which you just separate from the main engine harness. The upper wires Black/Yellow and Red/Yellow are connected to the switch wires in no particular polarity. The Flyin Miata wiring guide goes over this depending on the year of your car. https://www.v8miata.net/attachment.p...ine=1483503485 I'll be going over the rest of the wiring for the starter, alternator once that's done. Hopefully I can move onto mounting the Miata main harness and then lay out the LS1 engine harness and PCM. Summit Racing 2.5" exhaust kit is waiting patiently in the wings in case I need a distraction from wiring. |
Very well detailed build with lots of useful pictures.
Thanks for posting. |
Originally Posted by BGordon
(Post 22136)
Very well detailed build with lots of useful pictures.
Thanks for posting. |
5 Attachment(s)
Mounted the Miata thick white alternator wire to the GM alternator stud on the back. Was able to use the existing ring terminal and plastic cover. Not a perfect fit as the wire comes out the side vs. coming out the top.
Attachment 8761 I ran the white wire up along the frame rail on the driver's side, and then along the firewall zip tied to where the brake lines run. Covered in plastic loom. Other alternator connections will come later. Decided to go with mounting the PCM in the "engine room" vs the cabin. The 98 LS1 PCM is pretty bulky but there is room for it, and maybe some add'l room for me to hook up A/C lines at some point in the future. Takes up less room mounted this way. Attachment 8762 There are two conveniently located threaded holes in the body (I've marked in white paint pen) that I used to mount my bracket. Attachment 8763 Here's my aluminum strap bracket Attachment 8764 Bracket mounted tight. Squeeze the bracket a bit to bring it tight to the PCM, added a bit of old rubber hose as a cushion. Attachment 8765 |
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