Obligatory Build Thread: 427 MX-5
01-24-2015, 08:02 AM
#26
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I did look into an accusump, I haven't ruled it out, but It doesn't seem like the best system. I've read a handful of issues with air leaks causing the bladder to go empty, and then the relief valve puking on start up. It seems more of a band-aid than actual solution. Doesn't sound fun. As well, with the custom pan+accusump added, its pretty close to the cost of an ARE stage 1 dry sump which uses a 2-stg scavenge and the OE pump.
In reality, there is nothing wrong with the OE oil pump, its the drain/return system that is a problem, and I've not read of any effective solutions save accusump/dry sump. So long as the OE oil pump has a steady supply of oil, everything works fine. Its the pooling in the head/ sloshing in the sump and aeration that kill them. I am convinced the 2 stage scavenge system is the way to go for me, as it takes care of the only oiling system flaw, and its not going overkill to a 4-5 stage system.
In reality, there is nothing wrong with the OE oil pump, its the drain/return system that is a problem, and I've not read of any effective solutions save accusump/dry sump. So long as the OE oil pump has a steady supply of oil, everything works fine. Its the pooling in the head/ sloshing in the sump and aeration that kill them. I am convinced the 2 stage scavenge system is the way to go for me, as it takes care of the only oiling system flaw, and its not going overkill to a 4-5 stage system.
I understand the LS1 oiling system. The bigger issue is oil moving out against the side of the oil pan while in a long turn than a drain back issue. If the trap door gadget style oil pan is used, then pooling in the top of the engine is the bigger issue. Have used my own version of a pre-oiler while on track (road course) for years; no bladder no relief valve, just a bottle that holds oil against air pressure with no separation between the air & oil. Never had oil foaming or an oil starvation problem. Agreed, a dry sump system is a great option. Just wondered if you had considered a pre-oiler.
01-24-2015, 10:04 AM
#27
V8 Miata Participant
Thread Starter
Yes, I understand that its in the turns the engines usually give up the ghost, suppose I didn't mention it. In the end, the problem is not having oil over the pick up, for the reason you stated. It seems agreed upon the 6.2 and 7.0 have the biggest problem with it, likely due to the increase in mass, or whatever other hidden variable it may be. Regardless, with my intentions of track use, can't overlook the issue. I had considered an accusump/pre-oiler, but in the end I think the price difference isn't too significant, considering it requires similar space/modification, and how much damage can be done if you don't go this route.
On the other hand, you have another good point about the very well built racing-style pans we use in this kind of swap, with good baffles and trap doors, add in a large oil cooler and accusump, and that seems to be enough. I actually haven't heard of anyone with an accusump suffering from the same type of engine failure. In fact, it seems to only be stock pan'd LS3s, LS7s, and LS3 dry sumps.
I'd found a good used ARE pan so far, for same price as a V8R pan, so that is promising. Missed out on a stage 2 ARE kit for 1000, less a few pieces, but pulley/pump/pan and such were there. Probably going to have to make a custom tank regardless.
The one nice thing on this is I can make all my lines and do all my fittings myself, as I have access to a hydraulic crimp machine at work. Won't be too hard.
At this point, the only thing I'm thinking of in my head is to dyno it with a standard pan or put on the dry sump, or both, to see the HP difference. I'll probably have it all together before I find a dry sump solution.
**So much for mediocrity. Great deal on a 4 stage ARE system. Screw it.
*** one more update. One thing I've wanted for the longest time is Exige seats over the base elise models. Finally made that happen. Though, technically still from an elise. 2011 Elise SC Final edition, one of 15... Here's an example. Picked up the set of seats from one. I love alcantara as well for seat material. Better in the winter for sure.
http://www.carsauto.com/2011-lotus-e...tion-c-828.htm
On the other hand, you have another good point about the very well built racing-style pans we use in this kind of swap, with good baffles and trap doors, add in a large oil cooler and accusump, and that seems to be enough. I actually haven't heard of anyone with an accusump suffering from the same type of engine failure. In fact, it seems to only be stock pan'd LS3s, LS7s, and LS3 dry sumps.
I'd found a good used ARE pan so far, for same price as a V8R pan, so that is promising. Missed out on a stage 2 ARE kit for 1000, less a few pieces, but pulley/pump/pan and such were there. Probably going to have to make a custom tank regardless.
The one nice thing on this is I can make all my lines and do all my fittings myself, as I have access to a hydraulic crimp machine at work. Won't be too hard.
At this point, the only thing I'm thinking of in my head is to dyno it with a standard pan or put on the dry sump, or both, to see the HP difference. I'll probably have it all together before I find a dry sump solution.
**So much for mediocrity. Great deal on a 4 stage ARE system. Screw it.
*** one more update. One thing I've wanted for the longest time is Exige seats over the base elise models. Finally made that happen. Though, technically still from an elise. 2011 Elise SC Final edition, one of 15... Here's an example. Picked up the set of seats from one. I love alcantara as well for seat material. Better in the winter for sure.
http://www.carsauto.com/2011-lotus-e...tion-c-828.htm
Last edited by V8droptop; 01-25-2015 at 12:13 PM.
03-30-2015, 06:59 AM
#28
V8 Miata Participant
Thread Starter
Well, everyone loves photos, so here was my last few months with the project. Honestly, very little done and not much time for it this last time, and next time is looking full as well. The summer looks much better. I think I spent 1-2 days on the engine itself, and got a bit down when I found some bad news.
Backing up, last time I came home, I flew into Chicago, where my better half picked me up in my car. We went to pick up my engine at TNT Racing engines in Gurnee. It was a mixed experience, not the best dialogue between me and my builder, and the time was a lot longer than expected. However, the work is quality, the price was, eh, expected, and I now have a Darton-sleeved LS7 block w/stock rotating assembly. I honestly regret not going over-bore, but the Factory LS7 rods/pistons are very, very nice pieces from the factory. If anything, the sleeves, rockers, and oiling system are the weak points.
So, upon receiving the engine, it went into the back of the Mazda 3 and fit quite snugly, and we headed for vacation for 10 days.
Fast forward, we drive home from Chicago, my father came over and helped me lift it 2 feet out of the car and mount it on the stand, and I started going over it and pulling parts I had off the shelves. This is the source of boxes/clutter all over my shop in the photos, so I apologize! Its much more efficient to store parts on the car than in boxes, go figure.
Wasted no time getting the Cam in. Found the correct LS7 gear in my collection of parts, set up the timing chain dot to dot, and after that, started to degree it. Ran into some trouble, found out my lobes are asymetric so my centerline degreeing procedure was off and had a quick tech call to use another procedure, bingo-bango, cam degrees exactly, 100% on the nose. Note my lovely getto
(no H) Degreeing setup. The V8R engine mount plate is perfect for bolting on the head as amounting plate for a Dial indicator. And Comp cams will gladly sell you a piece of a coat hanger for $5 or you can make your own pointer...
There's always a few things you notice/learn as you go that aren't written down. Take a straightedge to you covers/pan area!
Another pause on the project. on the 1st of March, we head out to San Fran for some fun in the sun, and a quick visit to Dietsch motorsports to meet some really great people, and see an incredible collection of Loti, including a 60s elan, the original Tesla prototype, a few Series 1 Elise race cars, and gobs of Elise/exige cars from Stock to full on race. Its here I got my new seats from an unfortunately wrecked Lotus Elise SC Final edition which met an untimely death on Laguna Seca at 5,000 miles. We also met some fellow Mazda gear heads to drop of some Elise seats, including a fellow MSM'r.
Puppy Approves!
One of the cars the Miata owes its roots to.
Upon returning, I began more assembly. Sprayed the head gaskets, assembled the passenger head first, torqued it per Katech recommendations and clearanced my rockers. The Yella-Terra rockers require a file-fit on some of the LS7 head pedestals, only 3 in my case, you'll know when you see it. They experience mild bind due to the casting of the LS7 rocker pedestals.
Upon moving to the driver's side, I ran into a hitch. Almost all my parts are brand new, with a few exceptions. One of those is the Morrell link-bar lifters I'm running. Upon inspecting them, I found one lifter set with galling and pitting on one of the rollers. I originally hoped they were rebuildable, but nobody offers the service. What's more, is they are only sold as a set by about every vendor I could actually call to ask. I was in quite a bind, and close to shelling out another 600+ for one bad lifter, but luckily Brian Tooley racing offered a hand and sold me another used lifter, except they didn't charge me. I was rather floored, as they are supposedly $125/ea msrp. I am giving Brian's shop some business due to this, it really helped me out.
Other than that, I installed the Katech LS7 Oil pump, and did some work to my ARE pan. I've got a lot more to do just to finish the long block, then I intend to have it dyno'd with full accessories to see what the work has accomplished so far. I am going to be pulling the passenger head off once more and checking my lifters to doublecheck I didn't miss a problem with them, as well as my Yella Terra rockers which are used.
Here's the final mock up I did, with a lot of stuff missing. Just wanted to see how she looked!
All in all, not much progress, but hopefully the summer brings one or two productive months!
I attempted to put photos in order of the post, I'll be organizing more later!
Backing up, last time I came home, I flew into Chicago, where my better half picked me up in my car. We went to pick up my engine at TNT Racing engines in Gurnee. It was a mixed experience, not the best dialogue between me and my builder, and the time was a lot longer than expected. However, the work is quality, the price was, eh, expected, and I now have a Darton-sleeved LS7 block w/stock rotating assembly. I honestly regret not going over-bore, but the Factory LS7 rods/pistons are very, very nice pieces from the factory. If anything, the sleeves, rockers, and oiling system are the weak points.
So, upon receiving the engine, it went into the back of the Mazda 3 and fit quite snugly, and we headed for vacation for 10 days.
Fast forward, we drive home from Chicago, my father came over and helped me lift it 2 feet out of the car and mount it on the stand, and I started going over it and pulling parts I had off the shelves. This is the source of boxes/clutter all over my shop in the photos, so I apologize! Its much more efficient to store parts on the car than in boxes, go figure.
Wasted no time getting the Cam in. Found the correct LS7 gear in my collection of parts, set up the timing chain dot to dot, and after that, started to degree it. Ran into some trouble, found out my lobes are asymetric so my centerline degreeing procedure was off and had a quick tech call to use another procedure, bingo-bango, cam degrees exactly, 100% on the nose. Note my lovely getto
(no H) Degreeing setup. The V8R engine mount plate is perfect for bolting on the head as amounting plate for a Dial indicator. And Comp cams will gladly sell you a piece of a coat hanger for $5 or you can make your own pointer...
There's always a few things you notice/learn as you go that aren't written down. Take a straightedge to you covers/pan area!
Another pause on the project. on the 1st of March, we head out to San Fran for some fun in the sun, and a quick visit to Dietsch motorsports to meet some really great people, and see an incredible collection of Loti, including a 60s elan, the original Tesla prototype, a few Series 1 Elise race cars, and gobs of Elise/exige cars from Stock to full on race. Its here I got my new seats from an unfortunately wrecked Lotus Elise SC Final edition which met an untimely death on Laguna Seca at 5,000 miles. We also met some fellow Mazda gear heads to drop of some Elise seats, including a fellow MSM'r.
Puppy Approves!
One of the cars the Miata owes its roots to.
Upon returning, I began more assembly. Sprayed the head gaskets, assembled the passenger head first, torqued it per Katech recommendations and clearanced my rockers. The Yella-Terra rockers require a file-fit on some of the LS7 head pedestals, only 3 in my case, you'll know when you see it. They experience mild bind due to the casting of the LS7 rocker pedestals.
Upon moving to the driver's side, I ran into a hitch. Almost all my parts are brand new, with a few exceptions. One of those is the Morrell link-bar lifters I'm running. Upon inspecting them, I found one lifter set with galling and pitting on one of the rollers. I originally hoped they were rebuildable, but nobody offers the service. What's more, is they are only sold as a set by about every vendor I could actually call to ask. I was in quite a bind, and close to shelling out another 600+ for one bad lifter, but luckily Brian Tooley racing offered a hand and sold me another used lifter, except they didn't charge me. I was rather floored, as they are supposedly $125/ea msrp. I am giving Brian's shop some business due to this, it really helped me out.
Other than that, I installed the Katech LS7 Oil pump, and did some work to my ARE pan. I've got a lot more to do just to finish the long block, then I intend to have it dyno'd with full accessories to see what the work has accomplished so far. I am going to be pulling the passenger head off once more and checking my lifters to doublecheck I didn't miss a problem with them, as well as my Yella Terra rockers which are used.
Here's the final mock up I did, with a lot of stuff missing. Just wanted to see how she looked!
All in all, not much progress, but hopefully the summer brings one or two productive months!
I attempted to put photos in order of the post, I'll be organizing more later!
Last edited by V8droptop; 03-31-2015 at 09:30 AM.
03-31-2015, 07:58 AM
#30
V8 Miata Participant
Thread Starter
It would! I am being thwarted by a very strong company firewall. At least I can get some access.
Planning everything around everything else comes with the small amount of time home I have, we have very odd plans/trips because of it. But lumping the Chicago/San Fran trips in with something I had to do anyway was a nice bonus!
I forgot to mention, I did pick up the dry sump and its really slick. I'm running an ARE setup, originally I was going with a 4-stage, however because I already have the LS7 crank, I swapped it for the LS7 sepcific setup, which includes the factory pump modified by katech (1 stg scavenge, 1 pressure stage) and an extra belt driven scavenge pump, allowing the use of A/C. Fitting the dry sump pan is going to be a challenge, I have a plan, but there isn't a good choice If I want to keep it in the engine bay, both for weight and for the event of a frontal crash. But, If my plan works, I'm going to try and mount it in the front of the engine bay.
I'm still fretting a few minor details, and the costs are finally starting to dwindle. I need to get headers and a few other things, still! But I'm so close to a running engine its awesome.
Planning everything around everything else comes with the small amount of time home I have, we have very odd plans/trips because of it. But lumping the Chicago/San Fran trips in with something I had to do anyway was a nice bonus!
I forgot to mention, I did pick up the dry sump and its really slick. I'm running an ARE setup, originally I was going with a 4-stage, however because I already have the LS7 crank, I swapped it for the LS7 sepcific setup, which includes the factory pump modified by katech (1 stg scavenge, 1 pressure stage) and an extra belt driven scavenge pump, allowing the use of A/C. Fitting the dry sump pan is going to be a challenge, I have a plan, but there isn't a good choice If I want to keep it in the engine bay, both for weight and for the event of a frontal crash. But, If my plan works, I'm going to try and mount it in the front of the engine bay.
I'm still fretting a few minor details, and the costs are finally starting to dwindle. I need to get headers and a few other things, still! But I'm so close to a running engine its awesome.
Last edited by V8droptop; 03-31-2015 at 09:35 AM.
04-01-2015, 02:32 AM
#31
V8 Miata Participant
Thread Starter
Added pictures! I have made the decision to redo my rod bolts and rod bushings, as I am at a great spot to do it now vs later. It will add about $280 in parts and another $200 in labor, but it will make me sleep soundly at night, although I'm sure the motor may be fine without this step. Honestly, I don't know how high I'll be wringing this motor out, I'm sure my confidence will waiver far short of 7000rpm.
04-01-2015, 09:31 AM
#33
V8 Miata Fan
Looks great! I have a LS7 Corvette myself. Those are awesome motors! Mine made 585 at the wheels with just a camshaft, that same intake you have, headers, and ported heads. It is a completely stock bottom end and I turn it 7000 or so on a regular basis. It hasn't let go yet...
This is a picture I took when we were on our way to the 2013 Hot Rod Power tour in Memphis. A buddy of mine had a 69 Camaro with a 12:1 compression 496 big block with NO overdrive that was getting about 4 miles to the gallon. He was having to mix race gas with pump gas and stop at EVERY gas station on the interstate. They were about 3 miles ahead of us at one point and I was coming in fast to intercept him...
This is a picture I took when we were on our way to the 2013 Hot Rod Power tour in Memphis. A buddy of mine had a 69 Camaro with a 12:1 compression 496 big block with NO overdrive that was getting about 4 miles to the gallon. He was having to mix race gas with pump gas and stop at EVERY gas station on the interstate. They were about 3 miles ahead of us at one point and I was coming in fast to intercept him...
04-02-2015, 12:54 AM
#34
V8 Miata Participant
Thread Starter
That is awesome, Man. Hey, I see you are in the good ol Bama, you going to be at Talladega in May? We may have to grab a beer, I'll be in the area after the Mitty and before Talladega. You clearly have ***** of steel indicated by that tach/Speedo!
Glad to hear its holding up. I'm looking at an 05 base to supplement my powe addiction in the mean time.
As well, your dyno results make me optimistic! Your headers are likely better than the V8R set by a bit, so maybe the MF103 will even things out. Overall I think the miata only gives up a few hp due to its platform over a Vette.
Glad to hear its holding up. I'm looking at an 05 base to supplement my powe addiction in the mean time.
As well, your dyno results make me optimistic! Your headers are likely better than the V8R set by a bit, so maybe the MF103 will even things out. Overall I think the miata only gives up a few hp due to its platform over a Vette.
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