Brad, I have a Ford e cam in my 5.0L and have the same issues you do with low speed driveability. I have a fresh engine I know is very sound, perfect compression, etc., so no basic mechanical reason for such behavior.

Look around on the Mustang forums for posts about people running the e cam with a stock EEC-IV control system. I see mounds of complaints about exactly this behavior...bucking at neutral throttle, abrupt transitions on/off of throttle, surges, idles poorly, etc. Try to find posts where someone says they are running the e cam and the car has great everyday driving manners. I have not seen a single one. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but I haven't seen them.

The e cam has a considerably narrower lobe separation angle than the 5.0L H.O. cam the computer system was designed around, and narrower than any of the other Ford "alphabet" cams. Even though the total .050 seat to seat timing is moderate enough, the overlap events are considerable and I suspect this is what baffles the EEC-IV when it's running in closed loop. At wide open throttle when it goes into open loop it runs just fine.

Other than the e cam...which is my suspicion as at least one culprit (but not a proven fact)...the #1 reason people have these driveability issues with the EEC-IV is vacuum leaks. You can "think" you've checked everything and still have a small leak somewhere, which is enough to send the computer into a frenzy. I'd suggest checking carefully for vacuum hose/intake manifold, etc. leaks with a smoke generator. Make one yourself for $15, see here:
I have set my own car aside for quite a while in disgust, tired of wrestling with its ill low speed manners, but will be tackling it again soon. Will start with the smoke test for leaks. Once I squash any bugs and am confident everything else is working as it should I am going to swap out the e cam for a Howards roller cam that has 217/217 duration at .50 and .496 lift with 1.6 rockers, but also has a 113 LSA instead of the tight 110 on the e cam.

You mentioned previously you wished you could find some Ford GT40X heads. The FloTek heads are pretty much a clone of the GT40X and flow about the same, stock to stock. They are a good, balanced match for the ported Explorer intake. I will bet you'd pick up maybe 6 - 10 HP if you swapped to a 70mm throttle body. The 65 mm won't hurt you much in the rpm ranges where you actually drive 95% of the time, though. The additional air flow will only help towards the top of the power band.

Interesting that my combo will soon be very similar to yours. I will be installing a new set of worked-over FloTec heads on mine (ported by TEA, multi-angle valve job, converted to LS style beehive springs, Scorpion roller rockers, etc). Have an Explorer intake with the lower ported by Tom Moss, 70mm throttle body, 76mm BBK mass air meter, and that Howards cam I mentioned. I'd note that usually I'd run more exhaust duration than intake on a small block Ford, but the ported FloTek heads measured 85% exhaust to intake flow pretty consistently across the usable lift ranges...so don't feel I need the extra exhaust duration.

Summary:
1. Check again for vacuum leaks using a smoke generator; that's a highly-likely and common culprit.
2. Before you change anything else in your combo, (especially different ECU, chip, etc), find a tuner you are comfortable with and get their input on what should work best for your combo. They should know what they have made work well in the past, and what was troublesome; their knowledge/advice on combo setup is worth as much as their efforts in tuning it.

Edit: One thing I forgot...the springs that come "standard" on the FloTek heads may not be satisfactory for the hydraulic roller cam. I'm not sure about their current spring specs, but when I bought mine a while back the springs were really appropriate only for a streetable, flat tappet cam. The hydraulic roller cams require more spring pressure to rev to their design rpm range. If you haven't already, I'd check both the seat and open pressures to verify they are appropriate for the hydraulic roller cam. This won't help the driveability gremlins, but will be important as you get the engine broken in and are revving it higher.

Thanks guys. Yup, tune is in the works. I just ordered a Quarterhorse and a couple chips. Will post the logs on efidynotuning.com, and possibly have Decipha cook me up a tune.

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+1 to what Sunshine Guy said.

1) Yes to 70 or 75mm TB - throttle response will be better
2) B cams are not the best cams. There are far better options out there..custom cam is best, but if you want OTS - XE270 (218/224 @ 50) or XE274 (224/230 @ 50) comp cams will give decent power and very good manners day to day. Once you go to the next kevel you know you have a cam in the car and it will rock about a bit..fun for a sunday drive...not so much if you are in the car all day (like me).
3) Definitely do a vacuum test, leaks can be from anywhere, but they would need to be quite significant to give you the dramas you mention. So I don't think its a vacuum leak causing the driveability issues..but its worth a look.
4) Make sure the tune is properly sorted out by someone who knows what they are doing
5) O2 sensors need to be new AND be a good brand NTK/Bosch etc...I had a new but faulty VDO o2 sensor and it made my part throttle driveability a nightmare. So please check them or replace them to be sure. O2 sensor gremlins are a common issue.
6) As far as spring pressure goes you need something between 120-150 lb at the seat. The flotek heads are fitted with 130 lb springs. This is perfectly adequate for a roller cam with 0.5 in lift like the B cam. The B cam barely lifts 0.5 in...with a 1.6 ratio rocker. Those flotek springs can likely do up to 0.55in lift. I run 150lb for my cam's 0.6 in lift. Interestingly, the flotek heads only flow 218cfm on the intake at that 0.5 in valve lift and only go to 224 at 0.6in. By comparison a std non ported GT40P head flows 196cfm at 0.5 in and a TFS 170cc 11R flows 266cfm at 0.5 and 177cfm at 0.6 in and a TFS 190 11R flows 288cfm at 0.5 and 304cfm at 0.6in. Between the flowtek and the TFS 190 11R its a 32% difference in airflow at the same 0.5 in valve lift. I have never used the flotek heads before, keen to see how they perform once you get the car properly tuned.

But I luv the engine bay it looks ace, well done Brad :)

Cheers

Brad, please post results here when you get the car tuned! I am confident you will see a nice increase in both power and torque.

However, to me it will be especially interesting to see how well a tuner can tame those low speed, everyday driving, idling and throttle transition issues. Those are challenges a lot of us face with similar combos.

I may be all wet (because it is a factory piece), but I still suspect the e cam to be a contributor to your driveability issues. A stock 5.0L HO cam is around 210 degrees @ .050; the 220 degrees of your e cam should not be a total duration that is beyond the capability of a stock, mass air flow EEC-IV to manage.

However, the e cam's 110 degree lobe separation angle is tighter than all the other varieties of Ford alphabet cams which are minimally at 112 degrees. Also, If you look at the broad selection of street-friendly, hydraulic roller cams for this engine from reputable aftermarket suppliers, you will also see very few that fall below that 112 LSA spec, and many at 113 - 114 degrees LSA.

Tightening the LSA (like the e cam does) can be a good strategy for boosting low and mid-range torque, a very good thing on a street engine. You will find many cams intended for carburetor applications that dip down to the 110 or even 108 LSA range. The biggest trade-off for the tighter LSA is a rougher idle for a given total duration, caused by the increased "overlap" or period in which the intake and exhaust valves are both open. Even though increased valve overlap will lower dynamic compression by effectively shortening the length of the effective compression stroke, the scavenging effects of a good exhaust system can use negative pressure waves to accelerate the intake charge early in the cycle, increasing charge efficiency sufficiently to overcome and surpass the loss from decreased dynamic compression. That's where the increased torque comes from.

However, that rougher idle that comes with a tighter LSA is caused by part of the intake charge escaping the exhaust valve during the overlap phase when the engine is turning at low speed. My theory/reasoning/belief is that the additional overlap of the tight LSA plays havoc with the EEC-IV EFI as 1) O2 sensors are reading a rich condition in the exhaust gas that doesn't exist in the cylinder, and 2) less fuel ends up in the cylinder than the ECU "thinks" based on injector pulse width because part of it is escaping during the scavenging process. It's not that the tight LSA is a problem; it is the fact the engine management system is not programmed to deal with the different fueling requirements caused by increased valve overlap. .

Look at a couple of the most proven street cams, noted below to be recommended by Tom Moss, and used successfully by many: the Comp XE264R and XE270R. Although both have significantly more .050: timing and more aggressive ramp angles than stock, both stay with a 114 degree LSA, only one degree lower than stock. I don't think that's because Comp desired to "spread out" the torque band rather than have a higher peak torque number; I think it is because that is simply what will work with the EEC-IV engine management system.

Anecdotal, unscientific, and unproven...but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Thanks for the replies and comments, guys.
It was doing the funky chicken with the stock cam, and basically a 100% stock foxbody conversion. I’m sure the e cam is not helping, and I def. know it’s not my best choice, but it was available for basically free. In hindsight I maybe should have stuck with the stock HO cam, but I figured on doing a cam change in the future. I did correspond with Ed about a custom grind while building this engine, but he also recommended me going with his upgraded springs which cost more than his cam. More than I could spend this time around.
I suspect most of my problems are stemming from that cone filter and the ecu not being able to adjust properly for the wacky air flow- the main reason I built the cool air box.
I ordered the tuning hardware, it may be here by the weekend and I can start data logging. Decipha over at eifdynotuning offers remote custom tuning for a reasonable price. I’ll likely end up doing that as the coding is way over my head.
It currently isn’t undriveable, just a bit of a handful at low speed.

And thanks for the positive comments about the appearance of the swap. I’m pretty pleased with how things are turning out.

Well, that was quick. I have about 1000 easy miles on the new engine and it's toast.
I was noticing unusual sediment on the cloth when checking the dipstick. Concerning enough to make me open up a used oil filter. Lots of glittery copper and the bottom of the filter can looks like copper metalflake paint. Talked to the machine shop that did the work, they suggested it was "somewhat" normal to have metal in a fresh build... "Drive it but keep an eye on it and listen for odd noises". The rod knock started the next day. Taking the engine out tonight and bringing the longblock in on Monday.
From what I'm reading online it seems like it'll be thrust bearing (#3) wear....which gives them a lot of leeway to to claim operator error. We'll see how it goes.
I should've just ordered the cheap Blueprint Engines shortblock I was thinking about. And like a lot of other folks, money ain't exactly plentiful this year. I just marked 25 years of business last month, couldn't hold a celebration as we were legislated closed. And a very real possibility I may have to close up for good.
But on the bright side: Murder Hornets...lol.

Bad news Brad, Keep up with some picture... :)

Ugh, so sorry to hear. Set backs like that suck. That is one of the reasons I have a V8 in mine, I built a turbo 4 engine for mine and had a failure during break in that made me throw in the towel with the 4 banger drivetrain. Set backs can be a killer, but it will still be worth it in the long run once everything is done. Best of luck!

Hi Brad,

That is tough buddy. I feel your pain. I had a fresh engine slowly die once once...(its been the only dead engine). It was due to a bad camshaft with poor heat treatment on the lobes (it was an austempered core) the lobes were soft and the roller lifters slowly wore them down. That made the valvetrain lose its pre load slowly and the engine slowly developed a knock and lost power. It took about 15000 miles to do it, but I was pissed off as I have never lost an engine that I built in 30 years I have been building them.

So lesson learnt was always use bullet steel cores for cams :)

So onto to your engine..
1) Copper in the oil and filter is bearing material
2) Metal filings in new engines is NOT normal, only a slight dusty grey film is normal around new pivot points (i.e. roller rocker arm pivots, pushrod ends etc). Bearings and cranks should not ever touch so there will be no material lost. The engine oil although will be discoloured slightly on a new engine as all the pre assembly lube is extruded form the surfaces it was applied. That is why you need to do repeated oil changes in the first 500 miles to get all the assembly "lube gunk" out.

1) Did you measure the nbearing clearances correctly ? The Main bearings will need anywhere from 1.5-3 thou to run without issue. I usually hit them up around 2 thou
2) The main thrust bearing clearance needs to be 6-8 thou on THRUST. That means after crank is installed, use a lever to lever the crank all the way tot he back of the engine. Then zero a dial indicator on the nose of the crank parallel to the crank centreline. Then use the lever to lever the crank forward towards the dial indicator on the front of the crank. You MUST have 6 thou of clearance if you have anything less than 5 thou...it will probably start to bind. I have found a few thrust bearings sets quite tight on this measurement. The solution is to use some wet and dry on a flat piece of glass and rub the thrust surfaces down a little until you get the clearance.
3) All conrod bearings need about 1-2 thou to run properly. I usually go about 1.5-2 thou
4) the other area that people miss checking is camshaft thrust this is to be 4-6 thou. This checked with the timing chain all setup and torqued in place.

I suspect that due to the copper nature of the metal that either a bearing or a thrust surface failure has occurred. Either due to bad clearances or bad oil pressure.

Please keep us updated as its events like that where some of the best learnings occur. Also on a personal note I am saddened to hear that you may be forced to close your business for good. If I was based in SW Ont. I would drop in and gladly help you take it out, strip it and rebuild it bigger and better...for free :)

All the best with it champ..keep us posted.

Regards,

Hi Brad,

Any progress at all on stripping the engine down?

Update
Got the engine to the shop. They tore it down and confirmed toasted thrust bearing. Oil pump sent shavings to #1 bearing but luckily no other damage that they’re copping to. While they had it apart I had them replace the roller lifters (...I had a bit of annoying lifter tick), and a new XE264 HR14 cam. Shop claims it must have been installer (me) error as nothing they did could have caused that. Regardless, they only charged me for parts and they ate the machine work and assembly. Endplay measured at .005 upon return.
I also had them order a new melonized dizzy gear. CC is pretty strict about making sure to use a new proper gear for warranty. That was a story in itself. Delay after delay to get the gear. I finally just ordered it from Summit and it was here 2 days later. Engine has been back in the car for the past 3 weeks just waiting on that gear. Got the car running this past weekend. Let it run in the garage for 20mins or so, changed oil and filter. Driving it a bit today.....seems to run really good. Still have lifter ticking so maybe need to adjust rockers. That cam is wonderful. Nice low speed manners. I have a wee bit of buck or hesitation right around 2k rpm. And slow hot starts. Pretty sure Decipha will be able to tune those out for me. Everything else is good. I’ll get a few hundred miles on it , change oil again and check filter and endplay. If that checks out we should be golden. Fingers crossed.

Glad to hear you have the motor repaired and running again. I think you're going to find it's a great combo.

The moderate timing and wide lobe separation angle on that cam should make for great street characteristics. I'll bet once you have it tuned it will have great manners and plenty of mid-range grunt...perfect street cam.

Adjusting valve "lash" about 1/4 turn tighter from where you can feel spring tension release from your pushrods (i.e., where you can turn them with your fingers) is probably the "optimum" if you are regularly pushing the engine to near valve float rpm. It won't raise your rpm ceiling but it will allow the lifters to bleed down more quickly if rpm exceeds the spring pressure's ability to keep the lifter in contact with the cam lobe. In other words, it allows the engine to recover power more quickly after a valve train separation event.

While 1/4 turn may be the "razor's edge" for max rpm operation, I've found I often get more valve train noise that way. If the ticking bothers you, try adjusting to 1/2 - 2/3 turn tight from tension release of the pushrods. Sometimes that extra bit of lifter plunger compression will quiet the valve train some, and if you have a street engine that isn't punching the rev limited all the time you may find it more to your liking (I do). Comp Cams Extreme Energy series has pretty aggressive ramp angles for a hydraulic roller lifter street motor, so I feel they tend to make a bit more valve train noise at low rpm. However, they also help create good flow under the lift curve, optimizing the breathing ability of conservative (street) valve timing. No free lunch, but IMO they are still a very good choice when matched with the proper springs.

If valve lash adjustment doesn't help your ticking noise, double check your valve train geometry; i.e., make sure the push rod length you have is creating a good, narrow contact pattern in the center of the valve stems. Good valve train geometry solves a number maladies that often get erroneously blamed on some other cause.

Finally, if after those checks you still have the ticking noise, look carefully inside your valve covers to see if any rockers might be touching somewhere on the valve cover while in operation. Any oil baffles in the top of the valve covers are especially prone to causing interference. If it's a very minor contact (likely if the noise isn't really loud), often the issue can be solved by doubling up on valve cover gaskets.

Let us know results when you get it tuned!

Hi All,

@Brad - Great news champion!! Yes, thrust clearances will always get you if they are tight...0.005 is Ok, but 0.006-0.008 would have been better :)

The Xe264 cam is a great unit for daily 5.0L duties. I have used it before. All the Comp Cams XE cams as stated above by Sunshine Guy are a bit noisy. Its unavoidable, that's just how they are. I had the exact same thing on all my XE cams. But they operate very well, deliver good vacuum, good manners and good power. I would personally recommend 1/2-2/3 turn past zero lash on the lifter preload. Its a bit tighter but will give quietest operation.

I am so happy to hear that the machine shop helped you out a bit as well. Also the new XE264 cam will be a night and day driving experience over the old B303 cam.

Well done Brad, keep us posted on your outcomes!

Cheers

Thanks guys, but don’t pop the cork yet. About 5 mins after I posted I went out to do some more tinkering. Checked the oil, and that damn greyish sediment I saw before was on my clean cloth. I tore a small piece off to see if my magnet would pick it up. Yup. Metal.
So, 80km in I did another oil change and zipped the filter open. Saw a small amount of metal.....pretty sure there was no copper in there.
Hopefully it’s nothing,but I’m preparing for the worst. I notified a friend who works at the shop just so he’s aware. But if I have to pull this engine out again, a crate shortblock is going in.

As if my day needed a little more drama. When I was changing the oil and putting low profile drain plug back in....it broke off in the pan. It wasn’t even tight yet. Maybe it was heat fatigued. Luckily it wasn’t too tough to get out and I had a regular drain olug to put back in. Sheesh.


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Hi Brad,

I am unsure how well the engine block and components were cleaned, but it might simply be a little left over metallic sludge from the previous failure combined with a bit of assembly goo. Keep a close eye on it, as it should diminish within 200-300 miles. Change oils twice within that time as the engine is fresh. Most metallic wearing in happens in the first 50-150 miles. I drop oils at 50 miles, 150 miles and 500 miles. then again at 1500 miles. Please make sure you use a "running in" oil..i.e. non synthetic and non friction modified oil. it will wear in best with that.

I am confident if all clearances are as per my previous post, then the engine will be OK, If it does indeed lunch itself then get a 331 crate stroker with 400+ hp and be done with it :)

And good riddens to that pest of a sump plug...the factory ones last forever :)

Thanks. Sounds like good advice. Planning on pulling rad in a few hundred miles to check endplay as well (squeezed for space to get a dial indicator there).

Also there are some very strong magnets that you clip onto the outside of the oil filter. If any traces of metal are in the system it will catch them...as the magnetic sump plugs are pretty weak in comparison.

Here is an example...you just need to get the right diameter for the filters that you are using :)

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ftm-ss365pr

300 kms later I just did another oil and filter. The oil in the filter was filthy, but no metal that I could see and definitely no copper.
So, I think I’ll just replace oil and filter for now and do an endplay check in another few weeks. Will have the rad out to do that so will also take my upper intake and valve covers off and check my rockers. Will check wear pattern and retighten to 3/4 of turn rather than the 1/2 turn I initially did.
So far so good, I hope. Still getting tuning help from Decipha....still have an annoying bucking at 2k rpm that he can’t seem to tame.

Hi Brad,

Filthy oil is pretty normal in the first few kms after a rebuild. This is where all of the rings are still bedding in (so a bit of blow by), all of the assembly goo dissolves into the oil as well. I am glad that you changed the oil again as you really want that early startup metal and gunk out of the engine quickly.

Yes its a good idea to check the valve tip wear pattern, just to be sure its centered properly and check that you have 1/2 to 3/4 turn for preload. I think you will be fine from hereon in with regards to engine dramas. If something is really wrong it will surface quickly.

Also is the bucking on coasting (i.e throttle off), light throttle (just touching), part throttle (light press) or full throttle runs ?

Thanks. Ya, the bucking is on light throttle going through (accel or decel) or trying to maintain 2k rpm. Eveything I’ve read online seems to point to a lean condition, but in closed loop the 02 sensors control fuel, and according to the logs, 02’s seem to be working as they should.
I’m using a Quarterhorse with TunerPro RT for logging.

Hi Brad,

Disconnect the O2 sensors and see if it still bucks...at 2K on light throttle.

Then let me know :)

Will be a few days. I decided since it’s on jackstands right now I may as well do that other work.
Won’t unhooking the 02’s force it to stay in open loop?

Yes that right, unplugging the sensors forces open loop mode . That way you will see if the O2 circuit it affects the bucking. If it goes away, its the o2 sensor circuit (likely sensors), if not then its in the base map somewhere. Some O2 sensors may not throw an error code, but they can give the ECU erroneous data because of a fault they have. I had the same thing happen to me...bad sensor on one bank...caused havoc...bucking when cold...backfire in intake when cold. Mostly went away when warm. No errors on ECU...but saw O2 sensor was sending incorrect voltage to ECU upon further investigation...bad sensor was telling ECU to remove fuel through incorrect voltage reading...replaced both sensors...it was then perfect :)

It may or not be a lean condition...not sure if you can monitor A/F ratios with a wideband whilst its bucking...but it would be good to see what it does from a fueling perspective at the bucking point.

Keep us posted when you finish the other work :)

Will do. Thanks for the tips.

I may have discovered something regarding my thrust bearing failure.
Today I took out my rad to make room to mount a dial indicator. Before installing the engine i confirmed the builder stated .005” of endplay.
I mounted my gauge, lightly tapped the middle of the crank pulley to push the crank rearward, zero’d out the gauge, pulled forward on the crank and could not get it to move. Tried again, same result. You can probably see where this is going....
Sooooo......I disconected the slave from the bellhousing to free up the clutch. Tried to make my neasurements again and got my .005” ish endplay. Reinstalled the slave with the usual small preload, and remeasured the endplay. Once again I could not get the crank to move back. The clutch is applying constant force to the thrust bearing. I’m I correct in thinking that should not be the case?
In any case, I loosened up the adjuster nut to the point where I can tap the crank back....disengaging the clutch does push it forward again, but I presume that is normal operation. After releasing the pedal I am still able to tap the crank back, and I appear to still have lots of movement on the fork to disengage the clutch completely. My endplay actually measures closer to.006 now, so I may have worn the bearing surface. Hopefully not enough to have to pull the engine. And yes, I feel like a complete idiot. Checking that should have been my first move.

Clutch adjustment has been an Achilles heel on many of these Ford V8 conversions. Unless a person does a fair amount of tinkering, it can be difficult to get sufficient release travel for optimum clutch disengagement without starting with undue preloading of the release bearing.

To avoid the possible, unpleasant surprise of fast-wearing transmission synchros, after "loosening" your clutch adjustment, you might want to double check actual disengagement. If a clutch disc is dragging just slightly against the pressure plate at full release, the gears may not grind when shifted normally but the synchros are being overworked from the necessity to slow part of the mass of the clutch as well as the mass of the gears rotating at different speeds. If the drag is considerable, the synchros can overheat and fail in a tiny fraction of their expected service life.

If you can sneak a feeler gauge blade in between the clutch disc and pressure plate face with the pedal fully depressed, around .060" clearance should ensure smooth shifting on most clutch disc/pressure plate combos.

What if you can't measure actual clutch gap? If you know your synchros were good when installed and still at low mileage, if gears engage smoothly when shifted leisurely but "grunch" when shifted more quickly, you can suspect the possibility of inadequate clutch disengagement. Also, at slow idle with the trans in neutral, press in the clutch, wait a full 10 seconds, and cautiously try to engage reverse without going to any other gear first. Reverse is unsynchronized, so any clutch plate drag due to inadequate engagement with cause it to grind badly trying to engage. A tiny bit of clash doesn't necessarily mean your disengagement is unacceptable, but if there is enough clutch plate drag to abnormally wear the synchros, that reverse gear will complain loudly when attempting to engage it from neutral.

If you've already worked out all the gremlins from your clutch system and are confident your disengagement is fine, feel free to ignore this well-meaning but unneeded advice... : )

I’ll never turn up free advice from people who know more than me about this. I thank both you guys.
I had wife pedal the clutch while I looked at the fork. It appears good, but I’ll have a better idea in a few days.
I had to stop for the day now, but plan on checking the rockers on Wed. Should I loosen the nuts and let the lifters ‘pump up’ overnight, or do they only need a few minutes?
Thanks again for all the help guys.

A hydraulic lifter has a spring inside between the main body and the internal plunger/piston where the pushrod rides. Assuming the lifters are clean and in good condition (so nothing is "sticking"), the internal plunger should come to full height immediately when releasing tension on the pushrods.

I assume you are undertaking rocker arm adjustment in hopes of quieting the valve train. Without re-reading this long thread I don't remember whether you've already done this, but if not, this is the perfect time to double check your rocker arm geometry. Make sure the push rod lengths you are using, when the lifter is adjusted to the correct preload, creates the correct angularity between rocker arm and valve stem. You should select a pushrod length so that a line drawn between the two pivot points on the rocker (the trunion and roller tip shaft) will be at 90 degrees to the valve stem when the valve is at half lift. That way, there is minimal variance from that ideal, 90 degree relationship between rocker arm and valve stem as the rocker rises and falls from the half-lift point. This is really what is important to avoid side loading the valves, and also for getting the maximum, full, advertised lift range from the rockers. Variance from this 90 degree relationship at half lift will cause both diminished performance and increased wear in the valve train.

With the proper angular relationship between rocker arm and valve stem thus established, you should also see a "contact pattern" of the roller tip that is both NARROW and close to CENTERED on the valve stem. If rocker angularity is the correct 90 degrees at half lift and the roller does not contact the valve stem near the center in a narrow band, unfortunately the dimensions of the rocker arms you have are not ideal for the dimensions of that particular head (rocker stud holes to valve guide dimensions, in particular). This rarely happens on factory parts, but it's certainly possible if you have both aftermarket heads and aftermarket rocker arms (more potential variables).

If you haven't done this before, there should be some good youtube videos that detail the process. Here's a good one:
It takes some time and patience, but is not actually all that difficult. For "special tools" you can get by with a magic marker to determine current geometry, and a less-than-$20 adjustable pushrod and 99 cent springs from the hardware to determine the correct pushrod length needed to correct any geometry problems you may discover. A dial indicator is nice for measuring valve lift, but you can get by with a ruler, some patience, and some extra care if necessary.

It's nearly impossible to predict what length pushrods will be needed on any particular engine combination. Many engine parameters affect the pushrod length required: base circle dimensions of the cam, block deck height, cylinder head castings, rocker arm design, valve stem length, depth of valve seat cuts, head gasket thickness, etc. etc. There are so many variables affecting rocker arm geometry that it is easier to just check it, and if not satisfactory use that adjustable pushrod to determine the alternate pushrod length needed. Numerous different pushrod lengths can be found "in stock" ready to ship, and if needed, custom length pushrods are not much, if any, more expensive than good quality, in-stock items.

Anything other than the correct pushrod length will result in a less-than-ideal rocker arm geometry which not only can cause noise, but also numerous functional issues like oil consumption through the valve seals, fast valve guide wear (from side loading the stems) as well as early valve float due to the additional drag that side loading causes. You'll also get less than full advertised lift at the valve.

Few other engine "blueprinting" steps can be so successfully undertaken by the average home mechanic for so little cost while producing such great benefits in performance and longevity.

Thanks. I’m familiar with that video. I may have to revisit this, but for now now I may have yet another issue.
When I took off the upper plenum I saw some leakage of some type that could possibly be contributing to my bucking issues.
I’m not sure if it’s oil or gas ...it smells like either. I put a straightedge on both the upper and the lower mating surfaces. Both were dead straight . Can I use a thicker gasket or something to make this seal better? I’ve been using the 5 packs of FMS gaskets, but maybe there is something better. I recall seeing something similar last time I had the upper off.
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To join manifold halves with clean, unwarped surfaces, I personally would either use a gasket with no sealer (FelPro or OEM Ford brand), or I would be likely to consider Hylomar Universal Blue Sealant by itself (no gasket). Either must be applied to very clean surfaces with all traces of former gasketing gone. Just before assembling, do a final surface cleaning with acetone, MEK, or maybe brake cleaner. Watch out, the good, chlorinated brake cleaner will remove any paint in the vincinity and is nasty on your skin and respiratory system , so take precautions.

Hylomar must be applied so you have a very thin film; probably only a couple thousandths when joined and torqued in place. It is an anaerobic sealer that does not dry out or harden, so it must not be trapped between parts in thick "sheets" or "globs." Hylomar Blue is a great choice as a sealant in this application because it is temperature resistant to almost 500 degrees F., and is resistant to gasoline, alcohols, water and antifreeze...all the stuff one might find in the vicinity of an intake manifold. Hylomar can be applied to one or both surfaces to be joined (but remember, it must be very thin). After applying a thin film and before joining the parts. you must let the sealant be exposed to air long enough to flash off all its solvent. It has an almost unlimited working time, so you can be patient before joining.

If you suspect something isn't joining up properly here, there are videos on youtube on how to make up a simple smoke generator which should help locate any manifold vacuum leaks, as well as help you confirm when you have them fixed.

Hi Brad,

I can provide some additional info to the already great info posted by Sunshine guy.

1) Thrust bearing: Your measured thrust clearance of 5 thou on assembly and now 6 thou in the car is normal. It takes a few thrusts to properly seat the thrust bearing and crank faces. The additional 1 thou is the bearing now being properly seated and slightly worn in with the crank surface. I have measured many new bearing sets on thrust and they normally measure 5-5.5 thou. After running in it usually measures around 6 thou...I think you are good :)

2) Clutch: I am very happy that you released the preload off the clutch adjuster, the monster miata kit has a clutch master that provides barely adequate fluid displacement to the slave to properly disengage the clutch, without excessive preload. Upgrade to the Tilton clutch master if you have not already done so. Then you can back off the preload all the way. Technically the thrust bearing should barely touch the clutch fingers, that is all the preload you really need. butt up against it but without "pushing" it.

3) Upper Intake gasket. The upper intake gaskets can and do get oily wet. The PCV valve vent on the upper intake is likely the main culprit in your case. I would use a catch can ( I recommend the Mishimoto small can) to remove the bulk of the oil. The other thing I can recommend is that you check that the intake manifold surfaces are flat and that they meet up well WITHOUT a gasket in place (i.e. no gap and cant see light through the gap) and there is no other interference which may cause them not to mate properly (i.e. hose fittings or rubber lines). Either bad machining or slight vacuum hose interference can make the upper intake not properly clamp to the lower intake. I would advise that you use a little bit (not too much as it get squeezed out!) of silicone sealer on the gasket mating surfaces upon install. If everything is machined perfectly this will normally not be necessary, but should you have and surface irregularities in the machining, this will ensure a 100% seal. I had the same issue as you with a wet upper gasket, it was solved by using the silicone as the surfaces were not machined perfectly. I then added the catch can to the PCV hose line, which prevented the bulk of the oil getting in there in the first place. It is all good now and the catch can seems to pick up almost all of the misty oil that comes out of the PCV vent nicely. I empty it out at each oil change :)

3) Lifter preload: Sunshine Guys post sums it up very nicely. Not a lot to add, just make sure the wear witness mark on the valve stem is centered on the valve stem. I use a marker to colour the tip, install the rocker gear with correct preload. Rotate the engine through 2 full revs, then remove the rocker arm and check the wear pattern. If wear line is offset toward the exhaust manifold...pushrod is too long, if its offset towards the intake manifold its too short. Also the valve stem wear line should ideally be less than 80 thou and centered on the valve stem.

Alright, I have a good game plan for my day tomorrow.
1 Check and reset my rockers. May sound silly, but I’m actually just using roller tip rockers. They’re the PRW sportsman rockers. A few engine builders told me they would be quieter and more durable than a full roller. I may change them out at some point.
2 Retorque lower intake bolts....oh ya, the intake stud that holds the heater tubes- do I just loosen off the nut and tighten down the stud with an open end wrench to get it close? I won’t be able to get a torque wrench on the stud without removing the tube.
3 Reinstall the upper gasket. I’ll smear a light coat of RTV black on both sides. I had noticed this issue before and considered using RTV, but the thought of having to clean the mess everytime the upper comes off made me rethink. And I’ll make some ‘ temporary install studs’ to help guide the upper into place so the gasket doesn’t slide around when I drop it on.

Hi Brad,

Ok each in turn..

1) The rockers you have will be fine, no need to change them if the tip alignment on the valve stem is OK (centered wear mark and no more than 80 thou thick wear pattern)
2) The lower intake is 23-25 ft lb...which is pretty much hand tight with an open end spanner, so that will be OK to do. Just make sure you torque them in the right sequence....and do it 3-4 times all round to make sure its seated. The intake wiggles itself down slowly...so make sure that every bolt does not budge at 23-25ft lb. You will be surprised how many times you need to go round until its locked in place...its usually about 3-4...but just keep going until there is no more give.
3) Yep, agreed...some install studs do help if you are doing it by yourself....I sort of do the same thing...I just put the bolts through the holes in the lower intake and then lower it slowly whilst watching the bolts drop into the holes in the heads. Not too much sealer on the intake gaskets (upper and lower) as it will squeeze out and make a mess if you get trigger happy with the goo :). But the RTV does ensure its a good seal.

Quick question on O2 sensors. Attached pic shows where Martin locates his O2’s. Mine are about another foot aft of that. Would that be enough to have bucking issues? Trying to find pics of where they’re located on a foxbody.

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Hi Brad,

The O2 sensors should be as close as possible to the engine, the further away they are from the engine the more time lag there is to correct the fuel. You can adjust the O2 sensor delay parameters in the EECIV to counter for longer time differences due to 02 sensor placement in correcting the fuel curve.

I have mine roughly in the same area as yours and I don't get any bucking...

Hi Sunshine Guy,
I got everything back together, car is still on jackstands. This is what I’ve done regarding clutch adjustment:
I’ve loosened the master pushrod all the way, tightened back to snug, then gave about a half turn preload to the master. then de pressurized the slave to retract the slave pushrod all the way. While retracted I loosened the adjuster nut to have basically no preload on the TOB. When I press the clutch pedal it seems to give good range but the rod doesn’t retract 100%. I guess this is the ‘self adjusting’ nature of a hydraulic slave.
To this point things seem good, but when I start the car and press the clutch pedal- the rear wheels spin maybe one revolution as I slide the gearshift into first. Just while I’m shifting from neutral into gear, and then the wheels stop. I’m guessing I need just a tad more preload on the TOB which will also give a bit more throw.
I may switch to the 7/8” master at some point as Engineer as suggested, but I do like the light feel of this setup if I can get adjusted 100%.
Thanks for any insight you can share.

Hi Brad,

The light feel of the martin clutch master is nice I must admit, but I had to load the TOB with too much preload to get the required throw, additionally the TOB was toasted after 25000 kms. Only upgrading to the larger clutch master allowed me to adjust the clutch with ease. The amount of preload that I took out of the slave adjuster was crazy when i upgraded my clutch master. Its great now with the Tilton master..but the pedal is definitely heavier..

I agree with what Engineer said. The larger clutch master is probably the surest and simplest bet for adequate disengagement with minimal wear on the throw-out bearing. It will almost certainly be easier on your synchros and your T.O.B., and equally certainly a bit harder on your leg. No free lunch, it seems.

I haven't had mine running long enough to decide which way I will ultimately go on this. Martin has built a lot of cars with the smaller master, and while he admits the adjustment has to be "just right," a lot of people seem to feel it is satisfactory. (I drove Martin's shop car some years back and it seemed fine). Others have reported frustrations with achieving/maintaining adjustment and have subsequently made changes.

If you decide to stay with the master you currently have, a couple things might help.

First, look closely at the clutch pedal stops and the travel allowed. See if there is anything you can do or modify to allow the clutch pedal to come up just a bit higher and/or travel just a bit lower into the floor. A bit of extra pedal travel might move that master cylinder just enough extra to allow both a reasonable bearing preload as well as sufficient clutch plate disengagement.

Second, if you search on the forums you will find some people have rigged up a brace to support the mounting of the slave cylinder, to remove any flex in the bracket that would effectively sacrifice slave travel by allowing the slave to move slightly under pressure. Some seem to feel this helped the situation. Final thought, moving the connection point of the slave cylinder inboard on the pivot arm effectively increases travel, but if memory serves you've already done that.

Finally, FWIW, I am interested in investigating hydraulic throw-out bearing systems before I make a final decision. These used to be quite expensive but in recent years a lot more companies are making them and the prices have come down substantially. I have read where different brands and setups have been tried but I don't recall anyone finding what they felt was a "perfect combination." These are mechanically quite efficient, so with the right match between master and hydraulic bearing it should theoretically provide the required travel with the minimal possible pedal effort. Some people don't like these because if a hydraulic T.O.B. leaks you have to pull the transmission to fix it. My thought, if your clutch operating system isn't working up to par, you are going to end up pulling that transmission anyway to fix synchros or a worn T.O.B.

Wish I could offer more help on this, but since I haven't sorted out my own yet I can't offer first hand experience or a definitive solution. I will say, on both this forum and the "Engine Conversions" section of Miata.net you will find many threads where this exact issue has been discussed over the years and people have tried different things. There's a lot of previous experience out there if you are interested in pursuing it.

Cool. Thank you both.
I’ll play with it a bit. When I first got it on the road 5 years ago, I really didn’t have any trouble setting it up.
Most of the issue I see other folks having is either the clutch not disengaging completely, or too much preload resulting in slipping. In my case I may have had too much preload, but had no slipping at all....but I’m sure the excessive preload contributed greatly to my failed thrust bearing.
Anyways, will post back tomorrow with my findings and other issues.
Thanks again.

Quick update on everything.
First off, I think I have the clutch system figured out. Nice engagement with no grinds, and barely any preload on the TOB. Taking the little rubber off the bottom pedal stop gave a slight bit more travel, and every time I made an adjustment I made sure to completely retract the slave rod.

My other work was adjusting my rockers and addressing the plenum gasket leak.
The rockers are tricky. I remember on initial assembly over the winter that the pushrods ended up having to be quite short to get the roller to center over the valve. I actually had to order some Manley 6.050. Any longer and they would drift over to the outside of the valve. I have them pretty much centered, but the line is quite wide. I know this is either an issue with poor castings or the incorrect size of rocker. Gonna have to live with it for now. Maybe check into better heads over the winter. I can always sell these ones.
A few of the guideplates were out of kelter so I straightened those out. Snugged the nuts to 2/3 to 3/4 of a turn after zero lash on the base circle. The result is slightly quieter, so I’ll call it a win for now. I can live with it I think.
eta: now that I’ve driven it a bit I can hear it’s noticeably quieter. Yay.

On the plenum gasket, I still had reservations about using rtv on that....it’ll be such a bear to clean whenever the upper has to come off. So I compromised and applied a couple good coats of copper gasket spray. It’s supposed to to fill small imperfections and come off clean. I probably won’t know if it worked until the upper comes off again. Oh, and I do run a catch can off the PCV. Always have. I also used to use a small glass inline filter on the tube running from the oil fill to the TB. I wonder if I should put that back on. Maybe with the engine sucking in more air, the oil could be coming from the valve cover. I modified the baffle rather than completely removing it.

I ran smoke through the system and found no leaks other than around the TB shaft (normal). Vacuum checks out at a solid 17”, so I’m pretty sure no vacuum leaks.

On the bucking- I unplugged the O2’s. No change, still have a 2k rpm bucking. it’s not horrible but very annoying. Will keep working with my tuner on that.
So there you have it. Seems I’m cautiously in good shape. Assuming I can get this bucking fixed, and my thrust clearances stick, I’m golden.
Thanks guys for the great advice and positivity.
Cheers. Brad

Hi Brad,

Great work my friend. That sounds great. The upper sealer you used will be perfectly fine, you just need that little bit of extra insurance. RTV can indeed be a pest to get off, but my philosophy on that is I hope to not have to take the upper intake off for a few years at least (never preferably) :)

Great news on the clutch adjustment. I am sure you will be Ok from now on in.

PCV catch can is great...the inline breather to the TB with a filter on it is good as well. I stuff thick stainless steel wool into the oil filler neck where the breather tube starts. That seems to keep the majority of oil at bay before it gets in the breather tube...my TB is pretty clean. I just remove the steel wool when I do the oil change to fill it up and then I stuffed it back in.

On the valve tip wear line did you measure how thick it is ? It should not be over 80 thou thick..if its a lot over that then that means the sweep over the valve stem is too great. It could be the type of rocker that is used (assuming pushrod length is OK...should be close if you are centred on the valve) that is causing that. If its close to 80 thou it will be Ok. But if its too wide there will be issues later on.

17 inch of vacuum is perfect on the Xe264..thats is great news..that is perfect :)

Ok for the bucking I believe that's likely in the base tune. I would advise that you make sure that the AFM is in good condition (or get anew one). That is the most critical element to the A/F metering. With that new you can be assured that the tune will be accurate and the car will respond well. Also I trust that you serviced (cleaned, flowed and new filter baskets) the fuel injectors before installing them. Same for the ignition system (coils, plugs, ignition modules and ignition wires) they really need to be new to make sure you have no hardware anomalies in the system.

Also I am not sure if you have checked the fuel pressure at the rail. There is a port to tap a gauge into to make sure that you are getting stable fuel pressure. Any anomalies can be a pump issue (not hard to change and a walbro gss 342 upgrade is cheap and worthwhile).

But I assume form your description that the pump and pressure is OK, but its worth a pressure test to be sure.

I think this buking is in the tune. I assume the bucking is somewhat an abrupt forward/backward motion (like towing a trailer) and is NOT a surge. From the O2 sensor test you did its likely not fuel related. I also assume it does the same thing hot and cold (thereby implhign its not affected by fuelling). This may point to an ignition table gremlin. I would check to see if you you have too much ignition timing at the low TPS % opening angle being used when you cruise.

Your tuner will be able to see this in the data logs...and sort it through. Many times tuners get overly focused on full power runs and spend little time on the "transients" i.e. tipping in from coast to light throttle, backing off throttle to idle, idle return behavior, part throttle to full, etc etc. There is a lot to do to get the map as good as oem under all conditions..a good tuner should get you very very close to OEM levels :)

I am so happy you are motoring again...keep up the great work and keep us posted :)

regards,

As usual, you bring up some good points.

Valve stem marks are way more than .080.....I didn’t measure but guestimate about .120 or more. I know it’s an issue with the wrong rockers, but I also had some Summit brand Scorpion knockoffs that were exactly the same.....not sure what to do there as not too many folks have these heads and are able to suggest what rockers work best. I’ll live with it for now, but am really hoping to go for some better heads and rockers next year. Gotta make sure they’re no taller than what I have or I open another can of worms regarding valve cover clearance to the upper intake. At least the mark is centered.

MAF is a brand new SN95 unit. I still have a ‘93 MAF but it bucks with it too.
I didn’t send the injectors out for cleaning. That would have been a great idea. I don’t think they’re the issue though....the bucking is at that specific rpm regardless of gear. As you suggest, it doesn’t seem like a fuel or load issue when the rpm is so specific. I’d gladly buy wideband if I thought it was a fuel issue. Plugs are new, wires and coil are around 10k km. Same as the distributor. Could a faulty coil do that? It’s a Blue Streak or something like that from rockauto. Maybe should try a Motorcraft one.
I should check fuel pressure. Planning to do an upgraded pump over the winter as I’m still running the stock one.

Brad, just a heads up, I had the same bucking in the 1500-2000 ish range (tach was not exactly accurate) and my tuner spent hours trying to tun it out and could not completely get rid of it. My car had lopey TF Stage 2 cam, and aluminum flywheel/driveshaft, and we chalked it up to the combination of parts on engine with the touchy throttle. The car ran great otherwise, just had to keep it in the 2000 and up range. Just a little input on my experience.

Hey Jason,
Congrats on the sale of your car. Thanks for your posts over the years. Always interested in other peoples builds.

This engine is such a mild, close to stock build I can’t imagine I won’t get a handle on the bucking eventually.
I paid Decipha for remote tunes for life, and he’s not that old lol, so we’ll get it figured out sooner or later. In the meantime I’ll keep throwing the occassional part at it to appease the car gods.
It is strange that some folks can do tons of mods and have a perfectly running engine, and others buck right out of the gate.

Hi Brad,

Ok, leave valve train alone for now. There is little you can do to fix it without changing rockers and or heads if the pattern is centred. It will likely be Ok for normal street duties...different story if you were racing at 7000+ rpm all day.

Glad to hear that AFM is new but an injector clean would have been nice. Next time the upper is off...take them out and have them services. They will pick up a lot of flow and improve the spray pattern immensely if they are old enough. I always do them for any engine i build, for my latest one I purchased a new set form ford racing...not that much more than having an old set cleaned and checked.

Also coils can be faulty and cause grief...but this will be more a "miss"..a hesitation or momentary drop in rpm as opposed to a "buck" which is a rocking motion back and forth.

A new coil is always a good thing if the Blue Streak one is a little old or suspect. And a motorcraft coil is a good option..they are very very stable and will last forever...a lot of aftermarket coils can crap out earlier than expected.

If the bucking is always at the same RPM no matter what load, temp or fuel enrichment level then its likely the tune, but a new coil will make sure that everything in the ignition system is almost new...as this is a tune, ignition or timing issue from what I can tell. Also has the ignition module been changed as well ??? if not..these do let go from time to time so changing that is a good thing too.

If you do the pump upgrade a Walbro GSS342 is a an easy fit....but its noisier than std...so you will hear it if you tune your ear in... :)

Jason might be on to something here. While one would hope to tune out as much of that low rpm roughness as possible as their primary effort, whatever engine surge or lope remains after best-effort tuning might be exacerbated or amplified elsewhere in the drivetrain. Especially if experiencing significant wheel hop when the tires break loose, this effect might be indicated.

When tires are "clawing" for traction they successively hook more or less to the pavement, sending shock waves that load and unload the various drivetrain mounts. If anything is "winding up," i.e. flexing to absorb those forces it acts like a spring that loads and unloads, to the detriment of maintaining consistent tire contact and traction. Most common is the nose of the differential flexing upward against its springs or bushings (however its mounted). A rear transmission mount that flexes may add to the problem. Engine surging would apply similar, intermittent shocks to the drivetrain (from the other end) which could reasonably amplify the "bucking" felt due to wind-up and release of components acting like a spring.

So if wheel hop is observed, anything you do to chase that gremlin may also help reduce the "felt effect" of any remaining engine surge. Obviously it won't change what the engine is actually doing but rather might make it somewhat less noticeable to the driver. Some have found the Monster Miata rear transmission mount (cross member) to be a bit too flexible in their particular application. Adding two additional mounting points part way towards the center of that cross member, up through the mount and floorboard with bolts and backing plates above, seems to remedy that flex for those who experienced it. Making sure the differential is very securely and solidly mounted with firm, new bushings should eliminate any excess movement there.

I would certainly focus first on getting the engine to run as smoothly as possible at low rpm. "Tightening up" the drivetrain would be a secondary effort to mitigate any remaining effects of this issue. Although, if such stiffening is needed the worst outcome is probably a minimal reduction in felt surging but a significant improvement in putting down the power smoothly. So not a wasted effort in any case.

Well, this happened today...

The devil help me, is anyone familiar with this sound? Is sounds like a rattle or some sort of interference. I immediately assumed a loose rocker and tore to top end off. They were all tight and no signs of interference on the valve cover. Someone give me a match please.

It beat me today. Tomorrow night it goes up on jackstands and I see if I can isolate the noise.

Hi Brad,

I think I may cry...but I need to stay focussed.

Please use a rubber hose (some 3/8 or 5/16 fuel line works well...or a garden hose) as a stethoscope to isolate the noise.
From the hollowness of the sound on the video it seems to be coming from the bottom end ?? Generally a rocker noise or valve spring noise is more "Ticky" this is more "drummy". The hose trick will reveal if its under a rocker cover, lifter gallery or coming from the oil pan.

This engine really does not want to play in your car...maybe time for a new one ..just to teach it a lesson :)

The knock was coming from the pan. Ran it last night for a bit and it wouldn't make any noise...then had a hunch. I pressed down the clutch and a few moments later it started.
Seems I've toasted yet another thrust bearing. I was a little frustrated about this, but better today.
Since I measured, had clearance, and was able to move the crank with everything but the slave/TOB connected, it seems that it must have been that excessive preload that I didn't discover until recently. It HAS to be that, right?
I'll pull the engine this weekend and get the shop to do bearings and cleanup one more time. I kinda owe them that since they were good to me last time. And if it is excessive TOB preload that did it, then it's totally my fault.
What I don't get is the people who say they have too much preload and their clutch slips, and if not enough preload they have grindey shifts. My clutch wasn't slipping. Not sure what I'm missing here.

Hi Brad,

Good news its a TOB...thats an easy fix (relatively speaking...),

To fix these gremlins, I would strongly advise that you replace the clutch master withthe Tilton unit. It will give you all the throw you need to make the clutch adjustment easy. The monster miata clutch master just does NOT have enough throw for my liking...even though it feels nice and light under foot. You will battle with it almost every time not matter what you do. Some people get it to work, but for me without excessive preload i could not change gears. After I changed my clutch master I backed off the adjuster, I would say about an INCH...and then I got the TOB to just touch the clutch pressure plate. When I pressed the clutch the slave move so much further forward I had to grind a little more metal off the tip of the adjuster as it touch the pressure plate.

For the $80 it will stop all the clutch adjustment issue nonsense..but the pedal will be heavier...its a small price to pay and you will get used to it in 1 day.

Keep us all posted my good sir..you are almost there..! :)

Regards,