Gator Bait

No..really...nothing to see...yet....just ramblings of excitement for things to come.

Went to see a local tuner this afternoon. Went with the intentions of designing a custom rear mount turbo kit for the LS3 with visions of fluid to air intercoolers mounted in the trunk. Walked out with just a dyno tune session scheduled in 3 weeks. They talked me out of spending the $$ for now and doing a build up in steps. A proper NA tune being the first step. We'll get a base pull with it as delivered and then post tuning session. For a bunch of power crazed gear heads they were all rational and logical. ...kinda anti-climatic. But one of the best LS tuners will be working the keyboard so lets see what he gets. They are pretty confident It'll be a big improvement since it smells of raw fuel now... But if I still want more, next steps will be LT headers, head work, and cam swap. All are good supporting mods for if I do still decide to go FI after all that. Though they say I should be in the 550 to the ground range after the second step...which was the number I threw out there for FI. So instead of 7 grand I'm spending $500. Lets see where it goes....

charchri4

Good tuners are hard to find for sure and I know because I'm a bad one! Unless it is really messed up you won't get many ponys out of a tune but it will be really interesting to see what the before and after is. But I question doing a rear mount turbo on it. For one the turbo lag would be forever and for two a proper blower would look so much better on your car!

V8droptop

550 at the wheels on an LS3 sounds a bit up there, but if every thing in your setup is on point, I suppose it could be done.

Tony Mamo at AFR is taking care of my heads, they will be at home when I arrive in the states. We will see how it all turns out when I'm back there. He comes highly, highly recommended. Katech engineering and West Coast Cylinder Heads are also some of the big players in the aftermarket, ported head group. If you are looking for "budget" (not a word that goes with head porting, ha) Texas Speed was my first choice, until Tony basically held my hand through the whole High HP LS thing.
Texas Speed and Performance - Cylinder Heads & Camshaft Packages

Good luck with the mods. So, I take it the car isn't fast enough?

So, on this dyno thing, I'm interested to see what the Miata puts down. At first, I was wondering if the drivetrain loss is going to be slightly high or if the exhaust routing will stifle the motor some, but from the looks of it you should be on par with most any other LS car. Here's some example dynos:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomete...0-ho-dyno.html
Same guy different thread
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...0-ho-dyno.html

Gator Bait

The guy doing my tuning is considered the best in the DFW area. We'll see what the before and afters are. I'll be sure to post it up. The 550 was based on a large number of changes... LT headers, TB boring, valves, cam, ..... But for this first step it's just going to be the tune. I know my tune has issues now. Just coming from 5000+ feet elevation to a few hundred makes a difference especially in the open loop mapping. The sensors are "supposed" to adjust, but not enough. Just the fact it stinks of raw fuel at low rpm is something to be concerned about due to the potential for cylinder wash. If I was betting, I'd say they end up around 410-425 at the ground with my current set up after tuning. If there's 100 HP of bolt on and bolt ins in there we'll see... I'm told its very doable, but I have no real clue what the LS3s are capable of.

Forced induction. I don't want SC simply b/c I don't wanted added weight on the front of the car. The rear mount turbo can have some lag, but modern setups aren't that bad and we're talking a small ball bearing turbo here. Plus we're not dealing with a truck or Camero length car that the rear mounts are typically installed on. Additionally it would be a custom system with all mandril bent pieces that are ceramic coated. Not some mass produced home garage bolt on.

...Or maybe I'll just spray it! LOL

Gator Bait

Too much is usually nearly enough. I'll be the first to admit a big part of why I want to do the rear mounted turbo is the Cars and Coffee effect. I need to feed my inner poser. And then there's bench racing. Pecker measuring power to weight ratios with (stock) Ferrari and Lambo owners is a fun pass time. You have to watch it arount here though. Lots of 1200+ HP Vette, Camero, Mustang, and Camero's running around.

V8droptop

Fast is never fast enough. Until this:

Gator Bait

Isle of Man takes a set of solid stainless steel *****. I would love to see it in person. It's on the bucket list as is seeing some of the European MotoGP's in person.

charchri4

I bet there is a lot of undie cleaning after that!

Gator Bait

You just throw them away...along with the seat foam that you pull out your @$$.

V8droptop

No kidding. I am surprised there aren't more casualties in that race. But they are all lifetime professionals. I think this is the pinnacle of motorsports, that likely every biker in his life aspires to do one day. It really is death defying in many rights.

My big bucket list item is a taping of Top Gear. I'm on the wait for tickets. I was going to visit the place this trip, but missed it, London is a huge city, so much to do. Been fun here. I also missed the Dolphins/Raiders game that was played the other day here.

Gator Bait

Got the car back from the tuners. ...it feels......ehhhh.

Maybe I was expecting a night and day jump/improvement but its very anti-climatic after relieving my wallet of 5 bills. It went from 411.91 to 428.16 whp and torque went from 383.66 to 412.99 I really expect more from a motor that GM rates at 480hp at the crank. I'd say it's just there now with drive train losses factored in. Of course all dynos read differently and the tuner was tied up and couldn't chat while I was there to find out how it compares to other Cameros and Vettes on the same dyno.

Don't get me wrong...it runs great. It'll step the rear out on the shift to third at wot on 225/45/15 RA1s and 100mph comes ohh so quickly.

I just want......more.

So...vette intake, long tube headers, and a cam swap are next with another tune session. Won't likely happen until Jan/Feb as my Jeep and the trails are calling me. Too gorgeous right now in TX to not enjoy the outdoors.

Gator Bait

Wife ran me back up to the shop so I could pick up my truck. Got a chance to chat with the guys a bit. Evidently 2010+ standard transmission Cameros are putting down 383whp or so base and pick up about 8 with a tune on this dyno. So my 413whp is decently healthy for an LS3 with the hot cam and small diameter short tube headers. I was told to go pick on some C6 Z06s and be happy. LOL ...I still want more...

Sunshine Guy

Your tune netted you 16 additional HP or just shy of 4%. Not a monsterous leap, but decent and surely better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Where you really got your money's worth is in the torque increase, which at 29 ft/lb gain is nice, and double the percentage gain of the HP increase.

Since the torque gain is double the HP gain, that means the torque curve got fattened up more in the mid range than on top. That's the rpm range you actually use 90% of the time in a street car, so I'd say you did well.

I don't recall the rest of your driveline specs, but logically you would be using either a TKO or T-56 at this power level, and probably an 8.8" rear? Those heavier components will eat up a few more HP than the lighter diff and T-5 found behind lesser motors. A 70 HP loss, crank to wheels, isn't out of the question. So holding my wetted finger in the air and making my best guess, I wouldn't be surprised if you are putting out 490 - 500 HP at the crank.

None of which prohibits you from wanting more!

Gator Bait

T-56 and the diff is a Getrag (CTSV spec) with 3.42 gears.

I really SHOULD let it alone now and just concentrate on interior/exterior mods, but I like power. I really like excessive power. I have issues....

charchri4

I kind of thought that is about what you would see just going from a stock tune to a custom one but it's good to have a base line so you know what any mods get you. And I agree with Steve 480 at the crank to 428 at the wheels is right in the margin of normal. The good news is at 5.2 lbs per HP your car is in the top handful of the most powerful cars on the road and it's nothing to be disappointed in.
But this is a really interesting little issue you have going on here. No crime in wanting tons of power for sure and I certainly don't want to discourage you. But I'm kind of wondering what defines excessive power for ya. Seems to me like the other million Miatas out there your car functioned just fine with the 115 hp stock power plant. If I'm doing my math right 480 is a 317% increase from 115. One would be hard pressed to apply a 317% increase to anything else in life and not consider it excessive. Like if your boss got a 317% raise or the price of gas went up 317% or your wife gained - ah never mind....
So you know I just have to ask, what's it going to take to achieve excessive power?

Gator Bait

It's a matter of reference point. I've never driven a stock Miata. My first experience was when I turned the key at FM. So a 4% gain is all I recognize.

I went in to the shop originally looking for a rear mount turbo solution with a power goal of 600-650 hp. They aren't interested in building that solution again (there's an LS1 running around they built...he's all over Youtube). They suggested SC, but I'm not interested in adding another 50# to the front of the car. If I do anything more it'll be LT headers and a cam, maybe some head work. I'm waiting to see what that the LT/Cam combo does at FM with the car they're building now.

V8droptop

What intake are you currently running? Take a look into the haltech mf103 intake for c6s. If you look at the stock to mf intake dynos, there's your next 10hp or so. If you get one, you can do back to back with your current setup as well, assuming you go back with headers and other bolt-ons. I'm excited to see what you decide on for mods. A set of 1 7/8 primaried headers will be worthwhile for you as well, but not sure who to buy from, possibly v8r/kooks. The fast 102 when ported and matched to a set of ported heads is another great piece to add to the list. Even as-is, there's power to be had.

You should definitely be hanging about corvetteforum and ls1tech for power info, you are set up similarly to a c6 and fbody, like most of us ls cars. Tons of info as far as power mods. I've read enough dyno info and reviews to convince me of the nice vette intakes and good headers being worth it, and heads have come a long way as well. There's a 750hp 454 N/A on a ported fast 102 that shows you what can be done.

Gator Bait

I've been surfing LStech for years and the corvette forum comes up on some searches, but it all get a little redundant after a while.

I'm currently running a 4' tube intake with the cone filter sitting over the driver side headers. I have a vette intake like the FM guys are running now to install. My concern with an intake other than the oem vette is that it would be too big where it crossed the rad and cross brace. Not much room there.

Issue with going big on CU's is there isn't room for the stroker crank. I'd love to get to the 50owhp level, but truth is I'll be happy with whatever the LT, intake, cam, and valve work give me if I go that route. Hell...I may just bolt on a 100 shot of spray and call it a day.

V8droptop

That is the big question on aftermarket intakes, for sure. I'm going to try a few and see what works, but there are significant benefits if they can be made to fit. The stock z06 piece is nice If the others don't work out. Linear air flow is nice

Gator Bait

Anything that brings in cool air vs the super heated air it gets now is going to help. My dyno runs and tuning were done hood open. I'm a bit miffed they didn't do a couple pulls with the hood down to see what the difference is.

Sunshine Guy

Assuming no change in barometric pressure or humidity, you will typically gain 1.1% HP per 10 degrees F. drop in intake air temperature. By that calculation, if you are making 480 crank HP while sucking 100* F. air with the hood open, figure you loose roughly 5 HP per 10 degrees temperature rise with the hood closed. So, with closed hood temperature:
130* F. = 15 HP loss
140* F. = 20 HP loss
150* F. = 25 HP loss
160* F. = 30 HP loss, etc.

Although this loss calculation is for gross (crank) HP, I'm betting you won't be far off sutracting these losses from your net HP figure. The reason why is, at any given rpm the HP loss caused by friction in the tranny and differential gears will remain mostly constant even if the HP level rises or falls some. The only mitigating factor would be that more HP (meaning more torque at any given rpm) would accelerate the mass of the driveline more rapidly, thereby causing some amount of increase in inertia loss. So, by the SWAG method (scientific wild-a$$ guess), figure maybe 4 HP loss on the net figure per 10* F. temperature rise in intake air. That's probably close.

charchri4

I keep one of my gauges set at intake temp and with possibly the worst intake routing on the planet it usually runs 10 degrees above ambient. It is on the back side of the radiator right up against it top to bottom.

In an autocross waiting in line or any time it hot soaks it's higher but I have never seen it over 130 and that was on a very hot and humid day.

I was thinking I would reroute it this winter to get off the radiator but mostly to straighten out the bend before the MAF. I figure it would only drop the intake temp about 5 degrees and I'm not sure that by it self would be worth loosing the hood latch.

Gator Bait

Pretty close to what Keith told me too. He said I was likely leaving about 30whp on the table with my intake the way it is. It's currently set up the way his was on the targa car when it first went LS. He tried a heat shield at one point but the trapped heat under the box he made was causing him to cook the coil that was right there. I was going to ceramic coat the headers, but with the work involved, if they get pulled, they are getting replaced with LT (that would be coated). Ultimately I need to get the vette intake installed but it'll likely be part of the header upgrade due to the work involved. ...we'll see what Santa brings me. Wife's 40th is in a few weeks. Pocket book about to take a hit.

All that said...I've been looking at Vortech superchargers too. ...just for entertainment purposes. Ya'll figure out I'm ADD yet?

charchri4

Now wait a sec here. 4 hp loss per 10 degrees of added temp right? So 30 hp loss means your air intake is running over 70 degrees higher than ambient temp. I can't imagine a scenario where you could push the intake temp to 150 on an 80 degree day. I've only seen mine over 100 once or twice and that was in extreme conditions autocrossing on a hot day and even then only for a short period of time.

I'd be all over loosing the hood latch for 30 hp but where is that much HP coming from?

Gator Bait

No clue. I have no data to back it up, but my cone filter is sitting right on top of my driver's side header. I have no hood vents and the headers are not coated. I would think down here in TX, I have quite the omelet cooker going on under the hood. Both Keith and my tuner told me the ECU is pretty aggressive about grabbing timing with higher intake temps.

(the only under hood change from this pic is the addition of the rear brake valve)